Local Property Tax should not be deferred any further

@PMU

We all pay income tax at the rate determined by the Oireachtas (not the Revenue).

However, the income of the vast majority of pensioners is sufficiently low that in reality they would pay no income tax on their pension income (source for distribution of pension income: [broken link removed]). A credit against their income tax liability for LPT payments would be of no benefit to such pensioners.

No idea what you think inheritance tax or capital gains tax has to do with funding local authority services.

Again, our property tax is exceptionally low by international standards and, in my opinion, contributes to the significant misallocation of housing resources within our society.
 
However, the income of the vast majority of pensioners is sufficiently low that in reality they would pay no income tax on their pension income (source for distribution of pension income: [broken link removed]). A credit against their income tax liability for LPT payments would be of no benefit to such pensioners.
I really doubt such people (i.e. "plenty of retired public servants that live in very valuable properties and pay little or no income tax") exist, but even if they do, it just supports my argument against lump-sum taxes such as the LPT. If you have little or no taxable income the imposition of LPT may be so high relative to your income that it is demonstrably unfair.

No idea what you think inheritance tax or capital gains tax has to do with funding local authority services.

Tax on inheritances has nothing to do with local authority services, but if such pensioners are asset rich but income poor, the assets will be taxed in any event when they pass away, via CGT and CAT by those who inherit the assets. They are not avoiding tax on their assets.

Again, our property tax is exceptionally low by international standards and, in my opinion, contributes to the significant misallocation of housing resources within our society.
The 'international comparison' argument is spurious. You can say this about almost anything in any society. Ireland has less prostitutes per head of population than Germany. Any you saying we have a resulting misallocating of sexual services? Societies allocate resources to their unique needs and desires. There is no evidence that allocating to some other society's needs is likely to improve the overall welfare of your own society.

As for contributing to 'significant misallocation of housing resources' this is also spurious and furthermore dangerous. In a free society housing like any other good is allocated between buyers and sellers of property according to their preferences. Nowhere in the known universe has top down state controlled/influenced, or other third party, allocation of resources produced a better result. If there is a 'misallocation of housing resources within our society', whatever this actually means, it is more likely to be from state intervention/influence, than market transactions.
 
I really doubt such people (i.e. "plenty of retired public servants that live in very valuable properties and pay little or no income tax") exist
That's fine PMU.

I've no way of actually proving that I personally know of plenty of retired couples in precisely these circumstances so if you don't accept my word for it there's not much I can do about it.

However, I would point out that many of these couples bought their (now valuable) houses in the early 1970s (when average second-hand house prices in Dublin were less than €10k - source: http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/re...ts/statisticalyearbook/2004/ireland&theeu.pdf) and the average pension paid to a retired civil servant last year (€24k) is publcly available information. I assume you are not disputing the exemption from income tax (€36k) for a couple once one reaches 65?

If you have little or no taxable income the imposition of LPT may be so high relative to your income that it is demonstrably unfair.
That's where we fundamentally disagree.

If somebody holds an asset whose value is significantly attributable to or derived from services provided out of the public purse (policing, proximity to schools, etc) then I think it is entirely appropriate that society imposes a levy on that person - regardless of their income.

In any event, LPT can be deferred where a property owner can't discharge the tax out of their income so this is all a bit moot.

Tax on inheritances has nothing to do with local authority services
Exactly. So inheritance taxes have nothing to do with any discussion on the merits or otherwise of property taxes. Any more than corporation tax, income tax, excise duties, etc.

In any event, the reliefs on the taxes on inheritances are so high that most of these property holdings will never be taxed (over and above the LPT regime). Gains arising on the sale of a PPR are obviously totally relieved from CGT.

The 'international comparison' argument is spurious. You can say this about almost anything in any society.
I'm not arguing that we should have meaningful property taxes simply because they have them everywhere else - I happen to think that there are fundamentally justifiable reasons for taxing capital assets whose value largely derives from publicly funded services.

However, where we are an outlier in terms of our approach to any issue then I think it's perfectly valid to question that approach. Don't you?
As for contributing to 'significant misallocation of housing resources' this is also spurious and furthermore dangerous.
Again, I disagree but I think you may have misunderstood the point.

As things stand in Dublin, it is quite commonplace for mature "empty nester" couples to live in large, suburban homes while their offspring are trying to raise families in cramped apartments. There is no incentive for the older cohort to "right size" to accommodation that would be more appropriate to their needs and hence the mis-allocation of resources.

I'm not suggesting for a second that the State should intervene to force the older cohort to "right size" their accommodation needs. However, the under-utilisation of their property clearly represents a cost to society. A meaningful property tax would help to address this problem.
 
This smacks of Marxist social engineering.

There should be no property tax.

It is an abomination that I have to save the 48% of my money that I'm left with, borrow at twice the European average to shore up State owned banks, and then get whacked for a truckload of property tax on a non-income generating asset whilst still getting hammered for income tax.

Oh, and by the way the State will snaffle 33% of the value of the house when I die in any event.
 
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There is no incentive for the older cohort to "right size" to accommodation that would be more appropriate to their needs and hence the mis-allocation of resources.

I never realized that my house was a "resource" to be allocated.
 
This smacks of Marxist social engineering.

There should be no property tax.

It is an abomination that I have to save the 48% of my money that I'm left with, borrow at twice the European average to shore up State owned banks, and then get whacked for a truckload of property tax on a non-income generating asset whilst still getting hammered for income tax.

Oh, and by the way the State will snaffle 33% of the value of the house when I die in any event.

No one is forcing you to buy a house though?
 
Oh, and by the way the State will snaffle 33% of the value of the house when I die in any event.

Really, how come? I'm sure as a tax professional that you are well aware of the various inheritance tax exemptions and reliefs.

I agree that it is crazy that your marginal income tax rate is as high as it is and attaches to such a high proportion of your income. I think it would be preferable if we had a much broader tax base and levied more tax on capital and less on income.

Speaking of Marxists, I find it ironic that the hard left in this country argues against property taxes and that the Tory-ruled United Kingdom and Mr Trump's United States have some of the highest property taxes in the developed world. So much for lazy labels.
 
Hi Sarenco,

Unless one owns a business or a farm, it is difficult to avoid inheritance tax.

But not impossible...

Gordon
 
No. The scarcity of housing is hardly my doing.
No, you didn't pay for your house?

Or, no, you don't believe the open market is a good way of allocating scarce resources? If it's the later, what would you suggest by way of an alternative?
 
Do not try to lay the responsibility for current housing shortage on the "older cohort".
I'm not!

I'm simply saying that compared to practically every other developed country our minimal property tax discourages empty nesters from downsizing to accommodation that is more appropriate to their needs, thereby freeing up larger properties for use by growing families.

I think that's a shame.
 
Oh but you are.

If not why the need to free up larger properties for use by growing families?

Why do you assume the "older cohort" bought their current properties in the 70s.

Why do you assume they pay no income tax?
 
If not why the need to free up larger properties for use by growing families?
Because there are currently a significant number of young children that are currently being raised in cramped apartments, hotels, etc. At a societal level do you really think it's an ideal situation that many empty nesters are living in properties that they are struggling to maintain when their offspring are trying to raise their grandchildren in cramped conditions?

It has nothing to do with "blame". It has to do with framing tax policies that help to produce the best outcome for society as a whole. Surely that's what we all want to see, no?
Why do you assume the "older cohort" bought their current properties in the 70s.
I didn't.

I simply said that I personally know many retired civil servants that currently live in valuable properties that pay little or no income tax. PMU doubted whether that was true so I tried to demonstrate how such a scenario could arise.
Why do you assume they pay no income tax?
Again, I didn't make any such assumption. I simply pointed out the level of income that is exempt from income tax for the over 65s when trying to explain how a retired person could live in a valuable property while paying little or no income tax.
 
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