Local Property Tax should not be deferred any further

Brendan Burgess

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There are reports that the government is planning to defer the revaluation of properties for LPT even further.

Valuations were done in 2013 for 2013 to 2016.

We should really be paying LPT for 2017 based on the 1 November 2016 valuations, but that revaluation has been deferred to 2019.

If they used the November 2016 valuation, someone with a property worth €1m would pay €1,800 a year in Local Property Tax. That is not much given the value of the property.

By deferring the valuation, they are probably paying around €900.

It would be much better to charge a proper Local Property Tax and get rid of all the taxes on building new houses VAT at 13.5%, a Social Housing levy and a Development Levy.


We have to get real in this country

We want

· Low taxes

· Free water

· Free broadband

· High social welfare

· Social housing for everyone

· Big expenditure on infrastructure
 
It's a big jump from €900 to €1,800 for a house worth €1m

But €900 is too low.

By deferring it, they are just making the jump bigger when it eventually comes in.

It probably should be reset each year in line with some index.

Brendan
 
I completely disagree ...LPT should be abolished , why should somebody have to pay tax on an asset the have already paid for.
Of all the taxes in this country Property Tax is the most unfair.
There is absolutely no justification for taxing a persons home ... I hear you argue that the property is only worth 1m because of it location close to public transport and schools , perhaps parks etc ... so using the 1m house as an example; lets assume the property itself is worth 500k and its location to public amenities etc is worth 500k , well if that's the case when I purchase this property I should have to pay the following : 500k to its current owner and 500k to the Govt/Local Council = total 1m. My point is that the total price includes the valuation of its location to public amenities so I have already paid for that privilege...!!! SO DONT COME CHARGING ME FOR IT AGAIN...!!!
 
Your right Brendan it should not be deferred any longer, it should be scrapped totaly
 
I agree Brendan, but like water charges it's a political hot potato. Sure, we're recovering now anyway so what's the point ?
 
Codogly said:
There is absolutely no justification for taxing a persons home ...
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I could just as easily argue that there is no justification in taxing a person's income. I have worked hard for my money, why should I have to pay tax on it?

The point about property tax is that owners and occupiers of property use local services and they should pay for them. (Yes, I would extend it to tenants of council housing as well.)

The value of a person's property is a relatively good way of measuring their ability to pay. By and large, those living in more expensive houses, can afford to pay more for these services than those living in lower value houses.

But the key point for me is that we should not be increasing LPT just to increase social welfare rates and public sector pay. We should be using the money raised to fund the elimination of taxes on the building of new homes.

Brendan
 
It should be set by the local authority not a common national rate and it should fund the local services. There should be no transfers between councils. And councils should have an elected mayor not an appointed manager. Local government in Ireland is not democratic given the limited powers of councillors.

If property tax is to go up as a rebalancing of the system it should be revenue neutral eg abolish USC or something along those lines.

Otherwise leave it be.
 
Also councils should be allowed to apply development levies as increased property taxes on new builds, to be paid back over time at a reduced rate... no american town in need of funds would frontload the levies thereby stopping building and reducing its future tax and population base.
 
Brendan you are assuming that the value of a property is driven by the availability and quality of local services, this is only part of the valuation attached to a property. For example most three bed semi D in Dublin are similar houses in size and structure yet there is plenty of variance in price across the county ...? ... the simple fact is that houses located in part of Dublin where the community is free from elements of anti-Social behaviour are valued substantially higher that areas where ( a small minority ) run a muck. So how do you tax that element of the property value ??? ... is it a case of higher tax for people who conduct themselves in a civilized manner and lower taxes for uncivilized behaviour...where's the justice in that...!!!
 
One of the many reasons to have a property tax is that it acts to lower property prices.
 
Property taxes are economically very sensible, though often politically unpopular.
 
Totally agree with immediate revaluation for LPT. Maybe it should be by site valuation rather than property but that's another issue. I would suggest that it is offset by income tax relief, eg, the proposed widening of the bands.

I wouldn't agree with devolving it fully to local authorities.
 
Defending a free society costs money, so the costs of that defence (i.e. police, law courts, defence forces) should be paid for by taxation on those who hold assets, on the value of the assets being protected. In effect such assets in Ireland are largely property assets, so it is reasonable to tax farmers, landlords, property companies, householders, etc. on the value of their property assets, but only in so far as this tax pays for the defence of assets, and no more, I.e. there is a limit on the amount of asset-based taxes that would be collected. Otherwise, you tax money when it moves.

A property tax of the type we have in Ireland is a lump-sum tax on holding assets and makes as much sense as taxing someone for holding a hair dryer or a microwave. Furthermore, it does not 'broaden the tax base', as the tax base is in reality those who pay taxes and I would suggest that most who pay property tax also pay income tax. So it's just another tax on the same tax base. If not being abolished, or reformed as I have suggested above, at least those who pay income taxes should be allowed to offset their property tax as a tax credit.
 
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I haven't seen McWilliams' latest article re property tax linked. It seems relevant to this discussion:

[broken link removed]
 
PMU said:
I would suggest that most who pay property tax also pay income tax.
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Some of the wealthiest people in our Society pay little or no income tax but are liable for material LPT payments. Think of retired senior civil servants living in period houses in Ranelagh, etc.

I certainly agree that it would have been preferable if LPT had been constructed as a site value tax but regardless it definitely broadens the tax base. By international standards, we have an extremely modest property tax.

Brendan is absolutely right on this one - it would be crazy to further defer re-valuations.
 
Sarenco said:
Some of the wealthiest people in our Society pay little or no income tax but are liable for material LPT payments. Think of retired senior civil servants living in period houses in Ranelagh, etc.
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Those people will be paying tax on their income.
 
Purple said:
Those people will be paying tax on their income.
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There are plenty of retired public servants that live in very valuable properties and pay little or no income tax.

Don't forget that the first €36,000 is completely exempt from income tax for a married couple once one reaches 65.
 
Sarenco said:
There are plenty of retired public servants that live in very valuable properties and pay little or no income tax.

Don't forget that the first €36,000 is completely exempt from income tax for a married couple once one reaches 65.
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If they are living in a nice house in Ranalagh they are on more than €36,000 a year. I take your point though, just a bad example.
 
Purple said:
If they are living in a nice house in Ranalagh they are on more than €36,000 a year. I take your point though, just a bad example.
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I don't know why you say that - retired civil servants commonly don't carry mortgages.

Ranelagh wasn't always as desirable as it is today and was always popular with civil servants given its proximity to the city centre. As it happens, I know a significant number of retired civil servants that live in nice houses in Ranelagh.

A pension of €24,000 was just over the average pension paid to civil servants last year - €36,000 would be well above average.
 
Sarenco said:
Some of the wealthiest people in our Society pay little or no income tax but are liable for material LPT payments. Think of retired senior civil servants living in period houses in Ranelagh, etc.
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Gimme a break. If you are a retiree you pay income tax on your pension at the rate set by the Revenue Commissioners. That's why I suggested you should be able to offset LPT payments as a tax credit against income tax, as e.g. in Belgium, as you are already in the tax base, i.e. those who pay tax. As for wealth, you hold an asset as a bequest for your descendants who pay CAT, CGT on inheriting it.
 
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