Again shnaek's post is reasoned and reasonable; the calmest voice here.
Lisbon defeated what happens next ?
- Thread starter nad
- Start date
I think shnaek hit the nail-on-the-head there.
A disconnect exists between those politicians and bureaucrats involved in running the EU and the citizens of Europe. They do a poor job of communicating with people, especially on the direction EU is taking. The Irish Yes campaign was a dismal failure due to not properly, and with conviction, communicating the benefits or concerns relating to Lisbon.
This disconnect results in an information vacuum, which was very effectively filled by those with an anti-EU agenda. When people came to make up their minds, what clear information was available to them ? Plenty from the No side, a befuddled mess from the Yes side.
Hopefully the EU heads can learn from this and then maybe something positive will emerge from the No victory.
A disconnect exists between those politicians and bureaucrats involved in running the EU and the citizens of Europe. They do a poor job of communicating with people, especially on the direction EU is taking. The Irish Yes campaign was a dismal failure due to not properly, and with conviction, communicating the benefits or concerns relating to Lisbon.
This disconnect results in an information vacuum, which was very effectively filled by those with an anti-EU agenda. When people came to make up their minds, what clear information was available to them ? Plenty from the No side, a befuddled mess from the Yes side.
Hopefully the EU heads can learn from this and then maybe something positive will emerge from the No victory.
Duke of Marmalade
Registered User
- Messages
- 4,700
michaelm, shnaek does indeed seem reasonable and has admitted that she may be wrong about the EU after the Treaty being "run from behind closed doors", "being ruled by fear" and unleashing the dreaded "surveylance". However, you applauded these sentiments, is that what you truly think?
I am now of the view that the No vote had little to do with the No campaign and was carried despite the looney and misrepresentative arguments put forward by them. Once we were the poor vulnerable baby in the cozy family of 10. We were cosseted and mollycoddled and we grew up strong and healthy. Unfortunately we were also spoilt. Now there are lots of new little vulnerable babies. Soon we will be asked to contribute to the family budget. We do not like it one bit and that is why we are throwing the toys out of the cot, to rather get a bit lost in my metaphor.
Agree with Harchibald here. Reasonable yes, and certainly calm but it's hardly reasoned to say:
When the Lisbon treaty actually provided for Council meetings in public when discussing and adopting laws as well as providing increased powers for the European parliament.
When the Lisbon treaty actually provided for Council meetings in public when discussing and adopting laws as well as providing increased powers for the European parliament.
Duke of Marmalade
Registered User
- Messages
- 4,700
Oh dear. Czech's about to say No. That is very bad news. Treaty probably will die now and the blame will forever be on us, not the Czechs.
Eurobarometer post-referendum poll has some interesting findings.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0620/eulisbon1.html
[broken link removed]
Actually, reading through this and reflecting on the last few weeks, I have to agree with redstar's comments above about the Yes campaign. It was a disaster and failed miserably to engage voters. A befuddled mess sums it up pretty well alright. The different groups advocating a No were much better prepared, better organised and more determined and managed to place sufficient doubt in people's minds that they just couldn't give their support to the treaty on the limited information available to them. Like Garret Fitzgerald pointed out and again Noel Whelan on Q & A last Monday night, the government should have prepared for this months beforehand, laying the groundwork and educating the public about what the treaty was actually about before any debate began on the merits/demerits of what was in it (and not about what wasn't in it). They took the easy option and assumed a simple 'trust us' would work and this in spite of having prior experience with Nice.
The true culprits for this fiasco are not an Irish public suddenly turned rabidly Eurosceptic or anti-immigrant or both but the government and the wider political class for taking everything completely for granted.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0620/eulisbon1.html
[broken link removed]
Actually, reading through this and reflecting on the last few weeks, I have to agree with redstar's comments above about the Yes campaign. It was a disaster and failed miserably to engage voters. A befuddled mess sums it up pretty well alright. The different groups advocating a No were much better prepared, better organised and more determined and managed to place sufficient doubt in people's minds that they just couldn't give their support to the treaty on the limited information available to them. Like Garret Fitzgerald pointed out and again Noel Whelan on Q & A last Monday night, the government should have prepared for this months beforehand, laying the groundwork and educating the public about what the treaty was actually about before any debate began on the merits/demerits of what was in it (and not about what wasn't in it). They took the easy option and assumed a simple 'trust us' would work and this in spite of having prior experience with Nice.
The true culprits for this fiasco are not an Irish public suddenly turned rabidly Eurosceptic or anti-immigrant or both but the government and the wider political class for taking everything completely for granted.
Duke of Marmalade
Registered User
- Messages
- 4,700
www.independent.ie/national-news/lisbon-treaty/the-antieu-leprechauns-bring-us-no-crock-of-gold-1417761.html
Brilliant article in today's Indo. The cartoon says it all. Has this guy been reading my AAM posts?
Revised answer to OP. We are goin' to get nuffin'. We are goin' to be asked to vote again next Spring on the exact same Treaty. This time the message that the Yes campaign dare not speak (Bertie came close) will be loud and clear - "take it or lump it". We will vote Yes but our position in the EU will have been hugely damaged.
Brilliant article in today's Indo. The cartoon says it all. Has this guy been reading my AAM posts?
Revised answer to OP. We are goin' to get nuffin'. We are goin' to be asked to vote again next Spring on the exact same Treaty. This time the message that the Yes campaign dare not speak (Bertie came close) will be loud and clear - "take it or lump it". We will vote Yes but our position in the EU will have been hugely damaged.
This is a consistent theme among No voters. Other countries are less democratic than we are because we had a referendum on the Lisbon treaty, when other countries ratified it through parliament. Followed to its logical conclusion then we could become the world's most democratic country by holding a referendum on every bill put before the Oireachtas. That way, if we need to amend our finance regulations we can have Declan Ganley telling us to vote No lest we be conscripted to work in the IFSC, the farmers holding out for more pork, everybody complaining the bill is difficult to read and half the country voting one way because the other half are voting the other way. Democracy, eh?
Exactly. We've used up our goodwill in the EU and to what avail?
Because Denmark could renegotiate an opt out on a legitimate concern. What is Ireland asking the EU to negotiate an opt out clause on - stuff that isn't even in the treaty? Holland was let off the hook because they voted No alongside France. Then France is France.
That isn't what you'd call it if it was your tax money that was being stolen.
What federal EU? If a second union is formed that doesn't include Ireland I cannot imagine we'd very easily be able to demand that we be allowed to continue to export to the new union without tariffs. Especially if we wished to remain a tax haven for American multinationals exporting to the EU. If it was such an easy thing to negotiate (something I find hard to believe given the protective mindset of the EU bureaucrats), then why haven't more countries on the periphery of Europe done so?
Right, and has VRT been abolished? If tax law is sovereign then other countries have the right to enact tax laws that remove the benefit of our low corporate tax rate for companies exporting from Ireland to their respective countries. Our only hope would be too mount a legal challenge that such laws amounted to unfair competition and breached EU internal market rules. However, we may have lost potential allies for that fight. Incidentally, notice the moves afoot to remove McCreevy from his position as internal markets commissioner. It's realpolitik - something the No side seemed to be blissfully unaware of.
Well said, but you can be sure this won't be the last word on it (though it should be). The No side will still be talking about our undemocratic EU neighbours by the time we're voting again on this next spring.
television
Registered User
- Messages
- 386
Originally Posted by room305 http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=652767#post652767
Not well said at all. You are failing to see the obvious . This was a referendum to change our constitution. Under Irish Law their had to be a referendum. Now you might not like this. There is no logical conclusion in what you are saying what so ever. This treaty will radically alter issues surrounding our soverienty and our constitution, (you may argue for the better) issues such as these must be put before the people they are fundemental to our democracy.
television
Registered User
- Messages
- 386
Yes, if you mean failing to respect the democratic wish of the irish people and railroading through another referendum, then I would say Europe has shown its undemocratic credentials. What you are going to see is the government using the dirty tricks of certain no campaigners for its advantage this time, with cosmetic assurances coming from europe and a host of high powered european leaders coming here on winning hearts and minds missions. Remember the rules of LIsbon ratification were set down by all 27 members before the irish no vote. these rules stated the need for unanimity. When they dont get unanimity lets ust change the rules. Is anyone seriously telling me that is democratic?
A unanimous decision is undemocratic by its very nature. Imagine we had a similar system in the Dail. They try to pass a bill to clamp down on child trafficking for the sex trade but it gets held up by Jackie-Healy Rae who says he will only approve it if he gets enough tarmacadam to bury half of Kerry. Would you be arguing that we need to respect the democratic will of the Kerry people?
It is not democratic that Ireland can block the entry of the former Balkans states into the EU, if it is something desired by the citizens of those states and the rest of the EU.
It would also be entirely democratic for the EU to form a new 26 member state union and leave us to our own devices.
television
Registered User
- Messages
- 386
A unanimous decision is not undemocratic if that was the rules set up by all 27 demoocratically elected governments during the negotiations re Lisbon. Then it is very much democratic. Your constant use of simplistic analogies is becoming confusing.
Ireland voted change our constitution and to accept the treaty or not. The rules set up by the 27 governments requires unanimity not Ireland specifically. If any country does not ratify Lisbon then Lisbon under the rules of the 27 does not come into being. This was a rule put in place by all 27 governments democratically. It should be abided. Anything else is obviously undemocratic. Is is that simple.
See here. It's getting quite tiring repeating myself.
Nobody's changing any rules. 26 (or maybe it will be 25) sovereign states are perfectly entitled to agree any treaty between themselves. The rules for enhanced cooperation allow them to leave Ireland behind.
The amount of misguided idealistic navel-gazing about democracy that goes on among some on the No side is truly staggering. The EU is an oasis of democracy and stability in a dangerous and uncertain world. No, they don't have referenda in every state on every bloody treaty. No it's not perfectly democratic. So what? The sort of perfect democracy that some have in mind would be a recipe for deadlock and stagnation, endless negotiations leading nowhere. A form of democracy that would soon become discredited because it couldn't deliver solutions and address the problems of the day. That's just the kind of weak and ineffective democracy the political extremes of the left and right would love. Democracy failed in Russia and we got Putin (it could actually have been worse), democracy failed in Europe between the World Wars and we got Fascism. Don't think what has happened before couldn't happen again.
See here. It's getting quite tiring repeating myself.
Nobody's changing any rules. 26 (or maybe it will be 25) sovereign states are perfectly entitled to agree any treaty between themselves. The rules for enhanced cooperation allow them to leave Ireland behind.
The amount of misguided idealistic navel-gazing about democracy that goes on among some on the No side is truly staggering. The EU is an oasis of democracy and stability in a dangerous and uncertain world. No, they don't have referenda in every state on every bloody treaty. No it's not perfectly democratic. So what? The sort of perfect democracy that some have in mind would be a recipe for deadlock and stagnation, endless negotiations leading nowhere. A form of democracy that would soon become discredited because it couldn't deliver solutions and address the problems of the day. That's just the kind of weak and ineffective democracy the political extremes of the left and right would love. Democracy failed in Russia and we got Putin (it could actually have been worse), democracy failed in Europe between the World Wars and we got Fascism. Don't think what has happened before couldn't happen again.
Another excellent post.
Duke of Marmalade
Registered User
- Messages
- 4,700
Yes, fantastic post Nem.
R
rmelly
Guest
This thread seems to have gone full circle a few times at this stage, there's even posters getting very emotional while by their own admission they didn't bother voting, so time to move on, nothing to see here...