Again shnaek's post is reasoned and reasonable; the calmest voice here.
Again shnaek's post is reasoned and reasonable; the calmest voice here.I'd just like to clarify that I have nothing to do with the NO campaign. Nor the YES campaign. I am simply seeking to analyse the reasons why people voted NO.
As power moves from local to the centre, the people must be certain that there are checks and balances which prevent abuse by all powerful bureaucracy. I amn't seeking represent anything. I am truely a European, for if work dries up in Ireland, or if I find Ireland doesn't meet my needs I will move to Germany, or France, or Italy - I have nothing but respect for Europe. Nationalism, like religion, can be highly contentious. I am not making a nationalistic arguement. I am arguing from the bottom up. Give us a vision for Europe. Something we can believe in. Something we can be proud of. Something we can trust.
And perhaps I am wrong in my arguments. I am open to that. I have been an open supporter of the European project all my life, but I would be lying if I didn't admit to feeling a disconnect with it of late. I don't know the reason for this. I am searching for that reason.
michaelm, shnaek does indeed seem reasonable and has admitted that she may be wrong about the EU after the Treaty being "run from behind closed doors", "being ruled by fear" and unleashing the dreaded "surveylance". However, you applauded these sentiments, is that what you truly think?Again shnaek's post is reasoned and reasonable; the calmest voice here.
And yet, we have to have pride in the fact that the Irish stood up and voted NO - probably not to Europe, but to THIS Europe. A Europe which makes decisions behind closed doors.
nah they can compromise with us and with the Czechs; then being less democratic than us the rest of Europe can force through the ratification in their home countries. cool eh ;-)
We will vote Yes but our position in the EU will have been hugely damaged.
Why have we blown any more goodwill than for example France, Holland or Denmark when they rejected similar treatys by referendum ? I think you're too much into conspiracy theories here.
How is it stealing ? I would call it competition.
Why arent they worried about losing this 'privilege' ? Wouldnt we also have free trade even as secondary members of a federal EU ?
So basically are you saying that our free trade agreements as part of the European Union would mean nothing under any scenario and that a punitive tax similar to our VRT would be added to everything produced and sold out of Ireland ? Wouldnt' that be just as illegal as VRT under European law ?
It's realpolitik - something the No side seemed to be blissfully unaware of.
This is a consistent theme among No voters. Other countries are less democratic than we are because we had a referendum on the Lisbon treaty, when other countries ratified it through parliament. Followed to its logical conclusion then we could become the world's most democratic country by holding a referendum on every bill put before the Oireachtas. That way, if we need to amend our finance regulations we can have Declan Ganley telling us to vote No lest we be conscripted to work in the IFSC, the farmers holding out for more pork, everybody complaining the bill is difficult to read and half the country voting one way because the other half are voting the other way. Democracy, eh?
Not well said at all. You are failing to see the obvious . This was a referendum to change our constitution. Under Irish Law their had to be a referendum. Now you might not like this. There is no logical conclusion in what you are saying what so ever. This treaty will radically alter issues surrounding our soverienty and our constitution, (you may argue for the better) issues such as these must be put before the people they are fundemental to our democracy.This is a consistent theme among No voters. Other countries are less democratic than we are because we had a referendum on the Lisbon treaty, when other countries ratified it through parliament. Followed to its logical conclusion then we could become the world's most democratic country by holding a referendum on every bill put before the Oireachtas.
Well said, but you can be sure this won't be the last word on it (though it should be). The No side will still be talking about our undemocratic EU neighbours by the time we're voting again on this next spring.
Yes, if you mean failing to respect the democratic wish of the irish people and railroading through another referendum, then I would say Europe has shown its undemocratic credentials. What you are going to see is the government using the dirty tricks of certain no campaigners for its advantage this time, with cosmetic assurances coming from europe and a host of high powered european leaders coming here on winning hearts and minds missions. Remember the rules of LIsbon ratification were set down by all 27 members before the irish no vote. these rules stated the need for unanimity. When they dont get unanimity lets ust change the rules. Is anyone seriously telling me that is democratic?
A unanimous decision is undemocratic by its very nature. Imagine we had a similar system in the Dail. They try to pass a bill to clamp down on child trafficking for the sex trade but it gets held up by Jackie-Healy Rae who says he will only approve it if he gets enough tarmacadam to bury half of Kerry. Would you be arguing that we need to respect the democratic will of the Kerry people?
It is not democratic that Ireland can block the entry of the former Balkans states into the EU, if it is something desired by the citizens of those states and the rest of the EU.
It would also be entirely democratic for the EU to form a new 26 member state union and leave us to our own devices.
It is not democratic that Ireland can block the entry of the former Balkans states into the EU, if it is something desired by the citizens of those states and the rest of the EU.
Ireland voted change our constitution and to accept the treaty or not. The rules set up by the 27 governments requires unanimity not Ireland specifically. If any country does not ratify Lisbon then Lisbon under the rules of the 27 does not come into being. This was a rule put in place by all 27 governments democratically. It should be abided. Anything else is obviously undemocratic. Is is that simple.
See here. It's getting quite tiring repeating myself.
Nobody's changing any rules. 26 (or maybe it will be 25) sovereign states are perfectly entitled to agree any treaty between themselves. The rules for enhanced cooperation allow them to leave Ireland behind.
The amount of misguided idealistic navel-gazing about democracy that goes on among some on the No side is truly staggering. The EU is an oasis of democracy and stability in a dangerous and uncertain world. No, they don't have referenda in every state on every bloody treaty. No it's not perfectly democratic. So what? The sort of perfect democracy that some have in mind would be a recipe for deadlock and stagnation, endless negotiations leading nowhere. A form of democracy that would soon become discredited because it couldn't deliver solutions and address the problems of the day. That's just the kind of weak and ineffective democracy the political extremes of the left and right would love. Democracy failed in Russia and we got Putin (it could actually have been worse), democracy failed in Europe between the World Wars and we got Fascism. Don't think what has happened before couldn't happen again.
It's getting quite tiring repeating myself.
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