Leaving Ireland

Dermot said:
belle1. You and other posters are not going to be very happy with my post but anyway I will state my position.
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I don't dislike your post and you're right to say what you did but Belle is not a won't pay, she's a can't pay. And that's a very important distinction.

There is no point staying indefinitely on the dole paying the bank sums that can never hope to repay a mortgage. What more do you think Belle could do?

She has the option of a new county, a new life and hope for her child. She cannot go abroad without any money so in those circumstances taking a few months rent, particularly where there is a child involved well I don't see how that can be wrong.

There is no tax on rental income under the rent a room scheme, so I don't think there is any liability there. From the way Belle posted I'm assuming the tenant's are in her home - not sure why she mentioned PRTB though.

If she leaves it will cost the state ie taxpayers less as there will now be a saving of dole for 3 people.


Belle, just write to the bank and tell them your mortgage is unsustainable and ask them to take it back. Banks are doing deals, you never know what they might come back with.

In order to help other people like you it would be great if you can tell us how your dealings with the bank goes and also your move, emotions costs and experience.
 
Thanks Bronte, Ill get the letter done today, and will let you know the outcome.

I am not the only one in this position, so therefore Ill try and help others with info as much as I can.

The Bank is UB, hopefully they will see sense. Do you think I should tell them we are going abroad?
 
So far we've not seen much sense from banks, hopefully with all the pressure that's on currently that may change.

I think you should mention you're thinking off leaving. Don't say where. Something like the debt is unsustainable, you have health issues due to the pressure and may leave Ireland.
 
belle1 said:
Just going back to my original post last night, I need to write the letter to bank this week. Any opinions as to what I should put in the letter?
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If I understand you correctly, your plan is to stop paying over the money you are getting from renting the property and save it for covering your costs of moving abroad. Is that correct?

My first question is how long to you expect to have to save before you move abroad? Given you are moving a whole family and allowing for having some cash to cover your first few months there, I would expect around a year's worth of savings.

And what do you expect the bank to do during that time? I would expect that they will discover that the property is rented, if they don't already know and try to get the rent paid over directly to them.

To expect that the bank will do noting while you save up the money to move abroad is a bit unrealistic I think...
 
Belle1, you are absolutely making the right decision. The fun and games have yet to begin in good old Eire when the repossessions starting kicking in. Success and health to you and your family.
 
Tks gardener it's great to have support in these hard times. I have the letter drafted up for the bank. So lets see. We have thought long and hard about everything so yes I think it's the right decision. We are going to voluntary surrender and ask bank to write off NE. We are trying to do it the best way without just disappearing
 
I'm watching this thread with interest as I am in a similar position to the OP, though I have far greater arrears & personal debts.
The stress of my situation has been enormous & very detrimental to my health. I have not been able to cope with it all & so have buried my head in the sand to attempt to retain my sanity.

I plan to leave the country but I do want to find a workable solution rather than walk away entirely. I am only now starting to attempt to deal with everything but it is overwhelming.

I look forward to reading how the OP progresses.
 
Jim2007 said:
To expect that the bank will do noting while you save up the money to move abroad is a bit unrealistic I think...
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I disagree on this. The banks are not fast enough to catch people. Belle will probably do about 6 months to net her about 3 or 4K. This is a to a bank a derisory amount in the scheme of things, and it's not much for a family with kids to go abroad on. It may seem wrong but remember people have genuinely done everything to repay the banks, including depleting their savings. Once that is gone there is nothing left. So we should consider it as her recouping her savings in this instance.

So that Belle is not afraid the bank will suddently swoop on the rent, they move really slowly, they need to get their debt department working on it, then their legal department then their solicitor's. And the Marp process also slows them down. In any case for most situations they do not even want to go down the route of trying to deal with tenant's. They go after people like the Killiney couple where there is serious property and serious rent. They are not going to go after Belle. And there is no point scaring her.

I know of two banks where the rent is not being paid and so far all that is happening is the bank is monthly churning out their standard letters (one is sub prime and one is well known). There are people 'strategically defaulting' and becasue the banks don't want to repossess they are up to now ignoring the problem. Basically people playing the system. Belle is not in this category. She has done her best and now needs to put her family first.
 
I have sympathy for people in this situation but this family are getting SW and are going abroad to friends. I still cannot see how it is morally right or honest to be accepting an income from a house while there are repayments due on it and which will never be paid. The taxpayer here will have to take it up as we are ultimately propping the banks up. Yes there are bigger fish doing the same and more. Where does all the excuses stop and what is the maximum amount that is okay to siphon off. 5k, 10k, 20k, 50k, 100k, 500k, > . I cannot bring myself to support or encourage this. Sorry and it is only my view?.
 
Dermot the OP is on social welfare, which just about covers expenses at best, the option to move and start fresh is available , she is going to need to get money together to get the new start , if she was to try and save for this new start from just the sw how many years would it take to get the money needed? If you were in the OP's situation what would you do?
 
I do not come from a privileged back ground. I did not receive any 3rd level education. I do not have a high standard of life. I just have my strongly held beliefs about paying what I owe. Just suppose the OP had the house taken away in the morning how would they finance leaving the country. A lot of my Aunts and Uncles left this country penniless to go to England and America where in a lot of cases they knew absolutely nobody and made it there. The travel rates were proportionally much higher then than now. A lot of foreigners came here to work and I know some of them personally and they did not have more than 1 weeks survival money and they got on. OP is going to a non EU country but does not appear to have a plan for earning a living that we know of. What would I do in OP's situation?. I cannot answer that because I genuinely feel that we do not have the full story. I know quite a lot over the years about living on a tight budget and I am not as unsympathetic as I may sound. I am actually considered quite sympathetic when I come across very genuine situations.
 
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We just got a call from UB in relation to the letter we sent to them re VS on house.

The guy said that a relationship manager will be in contact with us in the next two weeks to arrange a meeting. They mentioned meeting us in our house. Does anyone know if we can meet at the local branch instead?

Houses in our area have recently sold for 100k or less. We actually owe 255k plus arrears. The guy on the phone mentioned maybe they can arrange an IO payment for the next 3/5 years but this still doesnt sort out our problem. We will never get the mortgage paid off with such high NE.

I suppose Im just looking for some suggestions as to how to handle this meeting? The bones of it is we do not want the house. We are emigrating either way. Also he said that we would be liable for the shortfall if house was sold.

Any opinions?
 
You can have the meeting anywhere you choose. This is just strong-arm tactics from the bank.

Also he said that we would be liable for the shortfall if house was sold.
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I wish them the best of luck collecting that from you in your new country.

It is very important not to disclose where you intend going.
 
belle1 said:
We just got a call from UB in relation to the letter we sent to them re VS on house.

The guy said that a relationship manager will be in contact with us in the next two weeks to arrange a meeting. They mentioned meeting us in our house. Does anyone know if we can meet at the local branch instead?

Houses in our area have recently sold for 100k or less. We actually owe 255k plus arrears. The guy on the phone mentioned maybe they can arrange an IO payment for the next 3/5 years but this still doesnt sort out our problem. We will never get the mortgage paid off with such high NE.

I suppose Im just looking for some suggestions as to how to handle this meeting? The bones of it is we do not want the house. We are emigrating either way. Also he said that we would be liable for the shortfall if house was sold.

Any opinions?
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Hi Belle,

I definitely wouldn't meet them at your house. Meet them at a hotel of your choice (anywhere in the country)! This provides a more neutral venue for both of you as having a bank official inside the four walls of your home would not give you a warm fuzzy feeling!

I know many people may disagree but don't for a single second feel bad about not paying back these unsustainable debts. You borrowed the money in good faith back in the boom years and your circumstances have drastically changed which no one could have foreseen including the tops advisers in the entire country/world!

The banks have completely buried their heads in the sand on this issue and have not been one bit rational or reasonable in their dealings with the vast majority of distressed borrowers to date. So look after your own interests now and don't be a debt prisoner for the rest of your life.

Take a hard line with your bank when you meet them. Ask them for a repayment option that is sustainable long term like a debt for equity split mortgage arrangement. If he/she makes unreasonable demands then threaten to terminate the meeting.

Feel free to tell them which country you are going to but don't give them an address. And if they request surrender of the property, tell them you will seriously consider this if they agree not to pursue you for the balance.

The banks are unlikely to send a rent receiver in within about 6 months so you can keep the rent and put it towards your emigration costs. That money will mean a lot more to you than the banks so don't feel bad about it. You are in a desperate situation so do what you can to give yourself a leg up, you have already suffered enough. The bigger fools will commit themselves to a debt prison for the rest of their lives and get no thanks for it from anyone. The moral hazard brigade are in cuckoo land.....'pay back the banks at all costs'. Who wants to be on their death bed 20 years to early from stress but at least you have a 'clear conscience with your bank'!

Best of luck with your new life, don't look back! Let us know how you get on with your meeting.
 
Hi CiaranK

thanks a mill for your post, to be honest the other day when I got the call from the bank, I wasnt the better of it after! I started to feel like maybe this was all our fault and maybe we could pay a little bit more, but my husband and I sat down, went thru the figures and there is just no way this mortgage is sustainable. Anyway, its just the intimidation I could feel on the phone, I know these guy are only doing their job....

Just one thing im not sure about....do u think we should tell the bank we have tenents in? Up to this point we had been handing the rental income over to the bank but we are saving it now. Probably no point in telling them we are renting but Im scared they might get suspicious as we cancelled our TRS and they might wonder why we did that...ay thoughts
 
belle1 said:
Hi CiaranK

thanks a mill for your post, to be honest the other day when I got the call from the bank, I wasnt the better of it after! I started to feel like maybe this was all our fault and maybe we could pay a little bit more, but my husband and I sat down, went thru the figures and there is just no way this mortgage is sustainable. Anyway, its just the intimidation I could feel on the phone, I know these guy are only doing their job....

Just one thing im not sure about....do u think we should tell the bank we have tenents in? Up to this point we had been handing the rental income over to the bank but we are saving it now. Probably no point in telling them we are renting but Im scared they might get suspicious as we cancelled our TRS and they might wonder why we did that...ay thoughts
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Hi Belle,

It saddens me to think you (and probably 100's of thousands of others in Ireland like you) are subjected to bully tactics by the banks, you are NOT at fault and don't feel guilty about it. We are living in unprecedented times and you were just like everyone else who bought their own home based on your economic circumstances at the time, ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with that! You are already paying a HUGE price of having to emigrate, a price far too high to be paying anyway because of a lack of resolve of this crisis by banks and government.

Take it from me that you have very little to fear when dealing with them especially the fact that you have made a decision to emigrate. YOU are now in the driving seat and will be able to dictate the pace of any future dealings with them. They will be very anxious to keep you on their side once they realize the game is up and you are off to better Pastures!

Don't even worry too much about them finding out you have tenants in situ, it will still take them a very long time to install rent receivers because they will exhaust all other avenues first. However don't volunteer the information to them and if you really do feel the need to tell them then just say you have a pile of other bills related to the property like insurance, cleaning, maintenance, letting fees, management fees, taxes etc etc. Anyway the level of rent if very small so really you don't have to worry about the banks on this. Yes they will try to push you to pay it over but there is absolutely nothing they can do immediately to you.

In actual fact, if I were you I would cancel the meeting and tell them to call you after Easter to reschedule. Then ignore their calls for about 2 weeks and then call them to reschedule. When eventually your meeting comes up, call them the day before and tell them you can't make it but you are will to go through everything with them over the phone. Play them at their own game because they are pretty damn good at it themselves. By engaging with them and corresponding with them you are not ignoring them.....just buying a little more time. KEEP THE RENT and don't be worrying. Put ALL your focus on your new life ahead and go for it!
 
belle1 said:
Up to this point we had been handing the rental income over to the bank but we are saving it now.

Probably no point in telling them we are renting but Im scared they might get suspicious as we cancelled our TRS and they might wonder why we did that
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Belle aren't you living in the house with the tenant's so therefore you are legitimately claiming TRS, you are not a landlord as such in the normal meaning of that term, you are under the rent a room scheme.
 
Hi Bronte

No we moved out of the house, its not under rent a room so we had to cancel the TRS.
 
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