LCD TVs & terrestrial Reception

How do you describe true widescreen? Do you mean letterboxed, i.e. black bars on top and bottom?

Here's how to tell if you are getting real widescreen. Put your widescreen TV in 4:3 mode. If the picture looks distorted (skinny) you're watching an anamorphic widescreen source. If it looks correct, it's a 4:3 source (which may or may not be letterboxed, i.e. black bars above and below the picture that give the impression that the picture is "wider.")

You're probably thinking that a letterboxed movie is true widescreen. It just means that the wide source has been reformatted to fit a narrower format. Note that you still get letterboxing on most movies however as the standard movie format is 2.35:1 which is wider than the TV widescreen format (16:9) -- just to add to the confusion.

Compare what you're seeing on your TV with a DVD when you force 4:3 on your TV.
 
extopia said:
Here's how to tell if you are getting real widescreen. Put your widescreen TV in 4:3 mode. If the picture looks distorted (skinny) you're watching an anamorphic widescreen source. If it looks correct, it's a 4:3 source.
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Yep - that's exactly what I'm doing. I'm switching between wide & 4:3 format and looking for the fat heads or the skinny faces. Mind you, it took several attempts with Tubridy to work out which skinny face was the right one.

extopia said:
You're probably thinking that a letterboxed movie is true widescreen. It just means that the wide source has been reformatted to fit a narrower format. Note that you still get letterboxing on most movies however as the standard movie format is 2.35:1 which is wider than the TV widescreen format (16:9) -- just to add to the confusion.
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Nope - of the 3 movies mentioned above, one was letterboxed and two were not, but all were widescreen.
 
RainyDay said:
...of the 3 movies mentioned above, one was letterboxed and two were not, but all were widescreen.
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Can't be true, I'm afraid, if your cable is NTL analogue.

A true widescreen broadcast is anamorphic (tall and skinny when viewed in 4:3 -- the TV does the unstretching).

NTL analogue is not anamorphic. NTL digital is. Don't know how you could be getting anamorphic ("true") widescreen with your setup, it's just not possible at this time.
 
Wish you could come down here and see what I'm seeing.

For example, the titles at the start/end of ER on RTE1 get cropped on my 4:3 pc, so I lose letters on the right or left of the screen. But on my widescreen TV, I get the full titles with no lost letters. DOesn't this mean that I'm getting full widescreen?
 
>Wish you could come down here and see what I'm seeing.

Well I can - all digital viewers can receive the analogue signal as well....

Well I know you are not getting full widescreen because you are on NTL analogue only - sorry to labour the point. :)

TVs vary widely in the amount of over/underscanning present. One TV will crop more than another. That explains the credit cropping issue you mention, it's not a good test. Here's a definite test, as you are watching ER, which is a widescreen programme (or during any RTE commmercial break, anytime of day or night, as all commercial breaks are anamorphic):

Put your widescreen TV in 4:3 mode. Do you see any black bars at the top and bottom of the screen? If so, you are watching a 4:3 broadcast, letterboxed to 14:9. If you are watching anamorphic widescreen, there will be no black bars and everything will look skinny (Note: if you have gotten used to watching a "stretched" picture a la smart mode or wide mode everything will look skinny anyway. But unstretched anamorphic is a very pronounced "skininess.")

Did you look at those links I posted above? Here's more info from aertel. page 192:

-----------------------------------------
RTÉ MOVES TO WIDESCREEN FORMAT
---------------------------------------
Introduction of Widescreen

Widescreen TV cannot be universal
overnight. Many programmes, especially
archive material, will still be in the
traditional 4:3 format, whilst others
will be in the new 16:9 format.

Because RTÉ transmits on analogue
platforms via the RTENL transmitter
network and on digital platforms via
Sky Digital and NTL Digital it is
necessary to transmit widescreen
programmes in 16:9 to the digital
platforms and in compromise 14:9 format
to analogue viewers.
 
Nope - I still don't buy it. There is no way that the cropping that I'm seeing at either side of the screen is down to under/over scanning. It is specific to a few US dramas (ER, Nip/Tuck), so it is definitely related to widescreen. NTL's customer service team have responded to my email query as follows "I can advise that Analogue customers where the programme is broadcasted in widescreen will be received in widescreen."

Where are you getting your information re. NTL analogue from?
 
Rainyday, perhaps you could split this to a new, retitled thread to encourage others can chime in?

As an NTL digital subscriber, I get both the digital and analogue signals. They're carried over the same cable and it is typical to split the signal into the digibox and into the TV, so the TV tuner picks up the analogue signal and you watch the output of the digibox through an AV input. So it's easy for me, for example to compare NTL's RTE analogue signal (letterboxed 14:9) with the RTE digital broadcast (anamorphic 16:9). I also know several other NTL digital subscribers.

The US dramas you mention are all broadcast on NTL digital in true anamorphic widescreen. No credit cropping results here, unlesss the TV and/or digibox is set up incorrectly, or is faulty. In the analogue world, however, a widescreen TV set to zoom or smart mode (depending on the make and model) could well crop the credits.

You mentioned Turbridy Tonight earlier as being in 4:3 in your house. Like the vast majority of RTE prime time programmes (with the exception of News), Tubridy Tonight is broadcast on NTL digital in anamorphic widescreen.

That's an interesting response from NTL. It implies that analogue customers receive widescreen broadcasts. However, NTL does not broadcast any anamorphic signals on analogue. They broadcast letterboxed widescreen, which is not true widescreen as it does not take advantage of your TV's full resolution, and as it is 14:9 it crops the picture. So what they told you is misleading - because there are no analogue widescreen broadcasts, only letterboxed ones. (I am sure you would agree with me that NTL's customer service is poor at best).

The reason, by the way, why broadcasters do not broadcast anamorphic widescreen over analogue is that it would alienate viewers with 4:3 sets that do not have a 16:9 setting. Anamorphic 16:9 has the same resolution as 4:3 (720x576 pixels) because it was designed to be compatible with the existing broadcasting system. The difference is in the aspect ratio of the individual pixels. If a TV is incapable of reading the electronic "flag" that says the broadcast is anamorphic (e.g. older 4:3 sets) it thinks it's a 4:3 broadcast and displays it the only way it can - tall and skinny, i.e. as if the pixels were regular 4:3 pixels.

Anyway, probably more info than you need. Did you do the simple "forced 4:3 mode" test I suggested? What was the result?
 
extopia said:
I am getting my info re NTL digital/widescreen from my own experience as an NTL digital customer with a widescreen TV. I also know several other NTL digital subscribers.
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I'm not being smart, but I'm not asking you about digital. I'm asking about analogue. Where are you getting your info re. NTL analogue?

extopia said:
The US dramas you mention are all broadcast on NTL digital in true anamorphic widescreen. No credit cropping results here, unlesss the TV and/or digibox is set up incorrectly, or is faulty. In the analogue world, however, a widescreen TV set to zoom or smart mode (depending on the make and model) could well crop the credits.
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The cropping isn't on the widescreen, it's on the 4:3 TV. It comes through perfectly on the widescreen, which is partly why I'm concluding that the broadcast is in widescreen.

extopia said:
You mentioned Turbridy Tonight earlier as being in 4:3 in your house. Like the vast majority of RTE prime time programmes (with the exception of News), Tubridy Tonight is broadcast on NTL digital in anamorphic widescreen.
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Just to be clear, it is not just a question about how it is broadcast, it is about how it is originally shot/recorded. Obviously, I don't have Tubridy in front of me at the moment, but I'd swear at the time that it looked natural in 4:3 and stretched in widescreen. But maybe it is because he is such a skinny git.

extopia said:
That's an interesting response from NTL. It implies that analogue customers receive widescreen broadcasts. However, NTL does not broadcast any anamorphic signals on analogue. They broadcast letterboxed widescreen, which is not true widescreen as it does not take advantage of your TV's full resolution, and as it is 14:9 it crops the picture.
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Let me try & clarify this with NTL and see what they say. Again, it would help if you could clarify the source of your knowledge/info re. NTL analogue.

extopia said:
Did you do the simple "forced 4:3 mode" test I suggested? What was the result?
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I tried it tonight with Other Voices on RTE2. No difference in the position of top border when in widescreen model and in 4:3 mode. Difficult to judge the 'skinniness' issue either way. I'll try this a few more times particularly with the shows which I believe are broadcast in widescreen.
 
This post crossed while I was editing the previous one, see clarification re NTL analogue and my source of info above...

re the cropping of credits, yes, I understood that you were referring to your 4:3 TV. If it is cropping credits and your other set is not, it is indeed most likely to be an overscan problem. Both sets are receiving the same signal. There is no extra information in the analogue signal that your widescreen TV can "see" but your 4:3 cannot.

Yes, yes, yes, Tubridy, the Late Late and the vast majority of RTE (and BBC/ITV) programming is now shot and recorded in widescreen. It is broadcast in true widescreen only on NTL digital, Sky Digital and possibly other digital services. NTL analogue relays the RTE analogue signal, which is letterboxed 14:9. That's why the signal looks stretched when you put the TV in widescreen mode and normal when in 4:3 mode.

No difference in the position of top border when in widescreen model and in 4:3 mode
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If you were watching the true widescreen broadcast you would not see any "border" (letterbox) at all. And yes, Other Voices is shot, recorded and broadcast in widescreen.

Hope this helps.
 
Extopia, what you are saying makes perfect sense to me.

RainyDay, there is an interesting article here on the whole widescreen versus 4:3, including a discussion on anamorphic widescreen.

I must say however that I have noticed the same effect that RainyDay has encountered on my 17" LCD widescreen in my bedroom, which is connected to NTL Analogue. (I have NTL Digital downstairs on my 32" LCD widescreen and do not notice the same thing.)

No matter whether I set the NTL screen size option to 4:3 or Widescreen, I still see some cropping on the left and right hand side of the screen. Changing the TV zoom options (e.g. to 4:3 or 14:9) doesn't seem to entirely solve the problem. I therefore assume it is either a problem with the broadcast or in some way with the widescreen flagging on the broadcast.

I confess that it doesn't bother me that much as I don't often use this TV. I will play with the settings over the weekend and see if I can figure anything out.
 
MonsieurBond said:
I must say however that I have noticed the same effect that RainyDay has encountered on my 17" LCD widescreen in my bedroom, which is connected to NTL Analogue.
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Do you mean the cropping? I suppose it's normal then. These programmes originate in 16:9 widescreen. When they are 14:9 letterboxed at the television station (nothing to do with the 14:9 setting on your TV), obviously one eighth of the picture is thrown away. That normally would not be enough to crop credits, which are generally placed well away from the edges of the picture to prevent "overscan" cropping... but if you have your TV in "zoom" you would crop even more off the edges, so that might cause this. Rainyday sees it on a 4:3 set though (no zoom mode), so maybe that's not it... Bit of a mystery! Never watch the analogue signal these days so haven't noticed this myself. Could well be a problem at the transmission end -- this would happen for sure, for instance, to a 16:9 programme transmitted in pan-scan mode, i.e. fully a quarter of the image cropped into a full-height, unletterboxed 4:3 image.... Who knows?

Excellent link, by the way. Explains it far better than I can!
 
extopia said:
Do you mean the cropping? I suppose it's normal then. These programmes originate in 16:9 widescreen. When they are 14:9 letterboxed at the television station (nothing to do with the 14:9 setting on your TV), obviously one eighth of the picture is thrown away. That normally would not be enough to crop credits, which are generally placed well away from the edges of the picture to prevent "overscan" cropping... but if you have your TV in "zoom" you would crop even more off the edges, so that might cause this. Rainyday sees it on a 4:3 set though (no zoom mode), so maybe that's not it... Bit of a mystery! Never watch the analogue signal these days so haven't noticed this myself. Could well be a problem at the transmission end -- this would happen for sure, for instance, to a 16:9 programme transmitted in pan-scan mode, i.e. fully a quarter of the image cropped into a full-height, unletterboxed 4:3 image.... Who knows?

Excellent link, by the way. Explains it far better than I can!
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Yes, I mean the cropping at the right and left hand side edges - "he O.C." instead of "The O.C." etc.

Haven't owned a 4:3 TV in about 10 years - so much so, that I find the "normal" display size looks very strange when I see an "old style" TV in someone's house - so I can't comment on NTL Analogue on 4:3 TVs.
 
If you put your widescreen TV is in 4:3 mode you see the pic as it would be seen on a 4:3 TV. In other words you see the entire analogue signal. If there's cropping there, it's the way it's being broadcast.

At RTE, the native anamorphic broadcast is fed through an aspect ratio converter before being sent out on analogue, This reformats the picture to the letterboxed 14:9 mode that analogue viewers see. Sometimes the guys in the control room forget to hit the switch (or hit the wrong switch) so that could explain this problem too.
 
extopia said:
If you put your widescreen TV is in 4:3 mode you see the pic as it would be seen on a 4:3 TV. In other words you see the entire analogue signal. If there's cropping there, it's the way it's being broadcast.

At RTE, the native anamorphic broadcast is fed through an aspect ratio converter before being sent out on analogue, This reformats the picture to the letterboxed 14:9 mode that analogue viewers see. Sometimes the guys in the control room forget to hit the switch (or hit the wrong switch) so that could explain this problem too.
Click to expand...

RTE is broadcasting ads to show that they are broadcasting in Widescreen and covering the aspect ratios. The page [broken link removed] gives more ino.
 
extopia said:
At RTE, the native anamorphic broadcast is fed through an aspect ratio converter before being sent out on analogue, This reformats the picture to the letterboxed 14:9 mode that analogue viewers see. Sometimes the guys in the control room forget to hit the switch (or hit the wrong switch) so that could explain this problem too.
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Surely it makes very little difference whether RTE convert the signal or my TV converts the signal. The real issue is what was the original material shot in. If it was shot in widescreen, then it will come through in widescreen (14:9 or 16:9) - If it was shot in 4:3, then it will come through in 4:3.
 
RainyDay said:
Surely it makes very little difference whether RTE convert the signal or my TV converts the signal. The real issue is what was the original material shot in. If it was shot in widescreen, then it will come through in widescreen (14:9 or 16:9) - If it was shot in 4:3, then it will come through in 4:3.
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No. If it was shot in widescreen, it can only be received in widescreen if it is TRANSMITTED in widescreen. That's my whole point - the RTE signal is only transmitted in anamorphic widescreen through NTL digital and Sky Digital. The analogue signal is not widescreen. These digital services actually get a DIFFERENT feed from RTE than what is sent out over the analogue network. The analogue feed is cropped slightly.

Thats' why if you put your TV in "wide mode" (which is designed for anamorphic material such as DVDs and digital widescreen broadcasts) it will distort the analogue signal. That's why everyone probably looks fat on your TV. In my experience the majority of people set up their widescreen TVs incorrectly.

If everyone had a widescreen TV, then RTE would probably change their analogue transmission to anamorphic widescreen. We're not there yet.

Take a look at the link Monsieur Bond posted. It explains the concept of anamorphic widescreen, essential for understanding what's going on here.
 
So, Rainy, did you upgrade to digital yet to get widescreen? The world cup is always a good excuse!
 
Sorry to bring this back to the original post-I dont know much about widescreen etc,except that having watched most of the World Cup on RTE anaolgue I have noticed Black bars top and bottom and wondered why.
But I am looking at buying a 37" LCD and have scoured the web-including AV forums -but am now more confused then ever.I watch a lot of football and hear conflicting comments about motion lag and smearing.Just interested to hear what your comments are -is this really an issue using an NTL analogue and/or digital signal?
 
Yeah - those black bars mean you're not watching a widescreen broadcast.

I would not buy an LCD TV, period. Samsung/Toshiba will have new sets on the market soon using new SED technology. The clarity of CRT in a slim case. Worth waiting for, and the advance reports are very positive.
 
Just to add to this -I needed a new TV and after much deliberation went for
32" LCD-reception in the shop off a Sky digital signal looked fine .I did fear
ordinary NTL analogue would be poor but I am very happy with the results-its
at least as good as my old CRT-except on a couple of channels which I dont watch much anyway.
The bottom line therefore on LCDs is if your signal is good the picture will be fine.I am now convinced that most of the problems associated with LCD are due to the source and not the TV.
From a happy LCD owner.:)
 
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