Brendan Burgess
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A truly shocking report in today's [broken link removed]. I have had a few unsatisfactory dealings with solicitors recently and I wonder just how common this sort of stuff is?
laois solicitor suspended
- Thread starter Brendan Burgess
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papervalue
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I have heard of a few cases which are not common public knowledge with similar things going on, a lot of them are to do with not passing money on to banks and given its straight to builders despite banks having undertaking from Solictor to pass it on.
I would say their is a lot of similar cases out their not yet in public domain.
In a sense i say case is the tip of the iceberg in regard to what is going on in some area's of legal profession
I would say their is a lot of similar cases out their not yet in public domain.
In a sense i say case is the tip of the iceberg in regard to what is going on in some area's of legal profession
I do think the majority of solicitors are honest and decent, having said that, I do have a perception that in recent months there seems to be regular reports in the papers about solicitors being suspended/struck off for various reasons, most of which seem to be property related. For all the valid criticism levied at the Law Society in the past, they do seem to be catching at least some of these. Have to say, in my own case, the solicitor I've used in recent years for a number of property transactions has been splendid and if anything, I'd consider her over protective of her clients
In this case in the paper it's hard to know based on the article if the solicitor in question was dishonest or just incompetent
Worth bearing in mind as well that just because you may be disatisfied with a solicitor doesn't necessarily mean the solicitor is wrong, he may be telling you hard truths that you don't want to hear
In this case in the paper it's hard to know based on the article if the solicitor in question was dishonest or just incompetent
Worth bearing in mind as well that just because you may be disatisfied with a solicitor doesn't necessarily mean the solicitor is wrong, he may be telling you hard truths that you don't want to hear
Its pretty ghastly alright. However, from reading the report, you can't help forming the view that it sounds more like incoherence/confusion/nervous disorders than fraud.
The complicating factor with our profession is that, unlike most other professions, we do handle client's monies and there is a requirement to have PI insurance ( in the event of negligence) and we also have a compensation fund ( in the event of dishonesty) so it is unlikely that any client will be out of pocket as a result of a solicitor's actions. The compensation fund is funded by the profession and it really hurts the rest of us when claims are made on it.
"In a sense i say case is the tip of the iceberg in regard to what is going on in some area's of legal profession "
I don't agree with this broad generalisation - I think that, no more than any other sector of Irish society, there are good and bad.
mf
The complicating factor with our profession is that, unlike most other professions, we do handle client's monies and there is a requirement to have PI insurance ( in the event of negligence) and we also have a compensation fund ( in the event of dishonesty) so it is unlikely that any client will be out of pocket as a result of a solicitor's actions. The compensation fund is funded by the profession and it really hurts the rest of us when claims are made on it.
"In a sense i say case is the tip of the iceberg in regard to what is going on in some area's of legal profession "
I don't agree with this broad generalisation - I think that, no more than any other sector of Irish society, there are good and bad.
mf
M
mercman
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I think in the case of the Law Society they take a fairly robust, diligent and pragmatic view and act accordingly. If suspension has occurred one can only assume that there is ample reason for suspension, not just simple heresay.
In all fairness Brendan, on reading the report your concerns shouldn't arise from his filing system or the lack of it, although that is the excerpt you quoted.
Many small solicitors offices look like superficially this.
Seriously, I've been in a good few of them over the years
Its a problem if the solicitor cannot find a document he needs.
It doesn't necessarily reflect on the quality of the work of the office.
"3 dimensional filing systems" like this work, but look terrible to laypersons.
And in the present case, he may not have been staying on top of the filing.
A dose of Ring binder folders with job numbers and reverse date order filing is all that's needed.
But in terms of the Court findings, the below seems to be the main reason for their concerns:
THE HIGH Court has suspended from practising and frozen the accounts of a midlands solicitor after being informed that a Law Society committee had formed the opinion that he is guilty of dishonesty and misconduct.
The court heard that the Law Society’s complaints and client relations committee, which considers complaints against solicitors, came to that opinion arising out of the solicitor’s alleged “systemic practice” of failing to use money received from the sale of properties to discharge mortgages affecting the properties.
The Law Society claimed yesterday that Eamon Comiskey had been giving the sale proceeds of properties to the vendors and leaving the buyer with an undischarged mortgage on the title.
Mr Justice Eamon de Valera, following an application by the Law Society, granted orders including freezing the bank accounts of Eamon P Comiskey Co Solicitors, a sole practitioner, at Ballycarnan, Portlaoise, Co Laois.
This dishonesty and the garbled responses and the state of the filing may indeed point to a common cause but its hard to say from the report. Certainly something is seriously amiss.
ONQ.
Many small solicitors offices look like superficially this.
Seriously, I've been in a good few of them over the years
Its a problem if the solicitor cannot find a document he needs.
It doesn't necessarily reflect on the quality of the work of the office.
"3 dimensional filing systems" like this work, but look terrible to laypersons.
And in the present case, he may not have been staying on top of the filing.
A dose of Ring binder folders with job numbers and reverse date order filing is all that's needed.
But in terms of the Court findings, the below seems to be the main reason for their concerns:
THE HIGH Court has suspended from practising and frozen the accounts of a midlands solicitor after being informed that a Law Society committee had formed the opinion that he is guilty of dishonesty and misconduct.
The court heard that the Law Society’s complaints and client relations committee, which considers complaints against solicitors, came to that opinion arising out of the solicitor’s alleged “systemic practice” of failing to use money received from the sale of properties to discharge mortgages affecting the properties.
The Law Society claimed yesterday that Eamon Comiskey had been giving the sale proceeds of properties to the vendors and leaving the buyer with an undischarged mortgage on the title.
Mr Justice Eamon de Valera, following an application by the Law Society, granted orders including freezing the bank accounts of Eamon P Comiskey Co Solicitors, a sole practitioner, at Ballycarnan, Portlaoise, Co Laois.
This dishonesty and the garbled responses and the state of the filing may indeed point to a common cause but its hard to say from the report. Certainly something is seriously amiss.
ONQ.
Do not agree that Laois case is "tip of iceberg" as suggested. Standard practice for vendors solicitor to give purchasers solicitor an undertaking to pay off the vendor's lending institution. Purchaser's solicitor would be chasing vr solr for the deed of release pdq after closing.
Further every practice has to be auditted by one of the recognised auditors each year, and "odd" transactions would immediately attract attention and enquiry.
On top of that the Law Society has it's own audit program checking all practices in rotation.
Further every practice has to be auditted by one of the recognised auditors each year, and "odd" transactions would immediately attract attention and enquiry.
On top of that the Law Society has it's own audit program checking all practices in rotation.
Brendan Burgess
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I have had some satisfactory dealings with solicitors also.
I appreciate that in any profession which handles money, there will be fraudsters.
But the "completely incoherent explanation of events" is what struck me. I have seen a few clients who really stood little chance of succeeding with their case because the solicitors simply made no sense. I have helped out a few victims of the Irish Nationwide lending practices by analysing their accounts and overcharging. I have now refused to work with any solicitor who is unable to understand or explain the basis of the case, and that is most of them. They seem to just want to issue proceedings about "overcharging" without trying to understand the case to assess whether there is a case at all. It has been rewarding working with the few solicitors who take time to understand the case at the outset and discuss with me, their client and a barrister the facts of the case and the basis for taking a case.
I appreciate that in any profession which handles money, there will be fraudsters.
But the "completely incoherent explanation of events" is what struck me. I have seen a few clients who really stood little chance of succeeding with their case because the solicitors simply made no sense. I have helped out a few victims of the Irish Nationwide lending practices by analysing their accounts and overcharging. I have now refused to work with any solicitor who is unable to understand or explain the basis of the case, and that is most of them. They seem to just want to issue proceedings about "overcharging" without trying to understand the case to assess whether there is a case at all. It has been rewarding working with the few solicitors who take time to understand the case at the outset and discuss with me, their client and a barrister the facts of the case and the basis for taking a case.
Brendan Burgess
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Hi Vanilla
the Law Society expression "completely incoherent version of events" really struck a chord with me. That is my experience of a number of solictors. Completely incoherent. No sense at all in what they are saying. No clear thinking at all.
I sat in on the probate hearing of the High Court on a Monday morning recently and I was astonished by the nonsense coming from the barristers. One guy was applying for some very unusual of order of probate. The barrister admitted that he had only heard of this option the previous day! The judge said he knew all about it. The judge asked the barrister the very reasonable question had the probate office refused an application for probate. The barrister didn't know whether they had been refused or not. The court clerk (?) was able to say that they hadn't applied. The judge sent him packing.
There were other very odd, incoherent discussions. The only person making real sense was the judge, who seemed to think clearly and ask fundamental questions. He had read all the affidavits and papers. It seemed to me that a lot of the barristers had not.
I appreciate I have moved from solicitors now to barristers.
Brendan
the Law Society expression "completely incoherent version of events" really struck a chord with me. That is my experience of a number of solictors. Completely incoherent. No sense at all in what they are saying. No clear thinking at all.
I sat in on the probate hearing of the High Court on a Monday morning recently and I was astonished by the nonsense coming from the barristers. One guy was applying for some very unusual of order of probate. The barrister admitted that he had only heard of this option the previous day! The judge said he knew all about it. The judge asked the barrister the very reasonable question had the probate office refused an application for probate. The barrister didn't know whether they had been refused or not. The court clerk (?) was able to say that they hadn't applied. The judge sent him packing.
There were other very odd, incoherent discussions. The only person making real sense was the judge, who seemed to think clearly and ask fundamental questions. He had read all the affidavits and papers. It seemed to me that a lot of the barristers had not.
I appreciate I have moved from solicitors now to barristers.
Brendan
serotoninsid
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Isnt the fact that the sector is self regulated part of the problem? Having said that, theres no point in regulation by a publicly backed agency unless its going to be effective. The ineffectual regulation of the telecoms sector by Comreg being a classic case in point.
L
Legal Eagle
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Its terrible whats going on in the Legal Profession and its only coming out now because of this recession. In the boom years none of this was recognised because clients had plenty of money now that they dont they clients are only starting to realise what Solicitors had been getting up to with cleints accounts. (A Victim of a Irish Solicitor and now a member of the (VLPS) Victims of the Legal Profession Society)
M
mercman
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It's the entire problem and not just for Solicitors. Problems across all sectors, -- Finance, Banking etc.etc. Hopefully with the new Financial Regulator this will never ever happen again. And the Government rapidly needs to appoint a person/body to oversee the Law Society to rid the country of the image it has placed itself in.
The other problem with this is that the incompetent barrister will still get paid...............
There are both good and bad solicitors, professionals who deal with other people's money should be very highly regulated, self regulation does not do the Law Society and it's members any favours. It is exceedingly difficult for a client to take on any solicitor. This should not be the case in a fair and just society.
I think you have had a bad run Brendan; but you are certainly not wholly in the wrong either. When young ( at Leaving Cert stage), I had no real career ambition. I had intended to put down dentistry or medicine on my CAO form. My father ( a civil engineer who dealt with solicitors all the time) looked up from his paper and said something to the effect that
'Most solicitors seem to be highly literate but not terribly numerate; It strikes me that a solicitor who was both literate and numerate would be at a decided advantage'
He was right.
Brendan Burgess
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He was back in Court yesterday and apparently has been very helpful to the Law Society since the court order. He is denying any dishonesty.
[broken link removed]
Brendan
[broken link removed]
Brendan
Hard to know if that was reported correctly, maybe he was seeking free legal aid, maybe it was too short notice to get legal representation. I've noticed the newspaper reports tend to state things more for good reading that absolute truth.
I would say it was unlikely he was handing all monies to his clients while at the same time giving undertakings to discharge mortgages, there would be no benefit to him doing this. If he had kept the money instead of redeeming mortgages it would make more sense.
It is possible on closing to get two drafts from the purchaser, one payable to the bank to discharge the mortgage and one payable to the vendor dircetly and you would be doing nothing wrong and nothing would go through the client account.
I would say it was unlikely he was handing all monies to his clients while at the same time giving undertakings to discharge mortgages, there would be no benefit to him doing this. If he had kept the money instead of redeeming mortgages it would make more sense.
It is possible on closing to get two drafts from the purchaser, one payable to the bank to discharge the mortgage and one payable to the vendor dircetly and you would be doing nothing wrong and nothing would go through the client account.
Any number of reasons :
1. No chance of ever getting paid.
2. No friends willing to help out. Either by paying or acting on his behalf.
3. Case is so hopeless/complex that no one wants to touch it.
4. Did not actually ask anyone. Acute embarassment or depression perhaps.
mf
Or it might simply be that things took off relatively suddenly and it was hard for him to find someone at short notice ( as many solicitors and almost all barristers take their holiday in August)