Where does this average cost of a new build come from?
Necessary to highlight that since RPZ were introduced things got much worse. Let me know if you want me to get them.
Landlord renting out a self contained flat or apartment in his own home
- Thread starter Millie*
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From a very low point. First rent measures came in 2015 with a rent freeze (it was not called rent control but somewhat the same). By that time rents had increased by 20 per cent from the lowest point (4 years earlier).
When rent controls came in, Q4 2016, the index you looked at was at 1,396. When this index started Q4 2007, the index level was at 1,312. An annual increase in nominal terms of 0.7%. While there was no rent controls, rents decreased significantly and also increased but overall not by very much. The high in Q1 2008 was 1330, down to a low of 1,001 in Q2 2011. The market worked as it should - increased supply led to rent reductions.
The latest index data for Q2 2025 is at 2,142 (probably higher if more recent data was available). Since rent controls were increased, we've seen an annual increase of 5.17% in rents. As we see in your screenshot, there was not a single period where rents decreased since the introduction of RPZs.
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Sister Sara
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No thanks. The homelessness issue has many variable factors - unemployment, immigration, increasing rents etc, RPZ's would be low-down the pecking order in my opinion for increasing the homelessness figure. Arguably homelessness without RPZ may be worse.
True, but most things suffered after the crash. Unemployment shot to 16% I think? Negative equity, uncertainty, pay cuts, pay freezes, USC etc. I'm sure you will agree that with high unemployment that prices, wages, etc would stagnate or fall?
I'm not endorsing govt policy if thats what you think? I think it has been an abject failure. Certainly by the CSO screenshot the RPZ policy looks farcical.
There are different perspectives in all this, tenants, landlords, developers, banks, and government.
Honestly, I'd love to have the answer to resolve what I perceive to be a failed market. I have my views, they may antagonise some but only if they are taken personally. Im not interested in projecting the "evil, greedy landlord" if thats what you think?
I'm interested in discussing the issue that somewhere along the line a better system is introduced.
I do think the small private LL days are numbered. Nothing against them personally, but that model is redundant in my opinion.
I know. I was there. Pay cut, unemployment, risk of unemployment, house devalued by half, new taxes... That's the reason why rent were still lower than 2007.
Ok. It's just that you mentioned "housing shortage precedes the introduction of rent controls". On what metric do you measure the housing shortage? I think almost any metric will show you it got significantly worse. Would be great to see the numbers.
What part of the govt policy do you not endorse? You have endorsed lifetime tenancies and rent controls seemingly do not go far enough. Where are the government's policies lacking from your perspective?
On my reply to your earlier post, I would appreciate if you could let me know where you see a dwelling can be built for 300k. Once I have that let's thrash out the affordability for the state to fund your proposal.
Sister Sara
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I'm not denying it has got significantly worse. I agree it has.
We are agreement that the housing shortage precedes the introduction of rent controls?
Or perhaps provide your own metric as to how you measure it? You have alluded that RPZ's have made homelessness worse. So perhaps you can get those figures after all?
The 6yr security of tenure rule and 2% cap. It's better than what was there but I think it is papering around the cracks. As pointed out by others, it bakes in large rent increases now, or in 6yrs time.
With respect, i'm not buying this nonsense of the market working it out...the 'increased supply' bankrupted the economy, brought down financial institutions, and heralded a sovereign debt crisis across Europe.
If this is what we have to go through in order for that the 'market' to work it out then with respect, no thanks.
Yes, i'm not sure what you are trying to say? I think you are arguing points that I'm not disputing but that you think I'm disputing?
Tell me, without rent controls what would the annual increase have been?
I can only assume that what you are saying is that because of rent controls LL's have begun to exit the market leaving less rental accommodation available and therefore inducing the rent increases despite the rent controls?
It is not an unreasonable point if that is what you are saying?
The €300k was presented as an average cost, as an example "say, €300k". Feel free to use your own figures and based on the 1/3 (investor) 2/3 (State) model and you may perhaps point to where I'm going wrong?
Sister Sara
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Just to add, the CSO population figure for Ireland in 2013 was 4,593,100
In 2025, its 5,458,600.
A phenomenal increase of some 18% in the period of 12yrs or so. I would think this would be the primary reason why rents have increased despite the rent controls in place.
I shudder to think what they would be at if controls were not in place and the consequences to social cohesion.
In 2025, its 5,458,600.
A phenomenal increase of some 18% in the period of 12yrs or so. I would think this would be the primary reason why rents have increased despite the rent controls in place.
I shudder to think what they would be at if controls were not in place and the consequences to social cohesion.
Thanks for confirming
Ok, so let's say you ignore that part about the market working it out. Fact remains, when there was no RPZs rents decreased significantly. They have only increased since.
Correct
Hard to be exact with numbers, but I'll give you this example for context. I'm just back from a work trip to Austin, Texas. Over the period you mentioned, the metro population there has increased by ~25% (more in percentage terms that Ireland). Rents there have been falling since 2022 and they now have a 15% vacancy rate. They have no rent controls (never had) and there is no lifetime tenancies. Tenants have great choice and strong negotiating power.
"Tell me, without rent controls what would the annual increase have been?"
I suspect over the period since the introduction of RPZs to Ireland rents would have increased inline with inflation (which matches the average growth in Austin metro over the period from Q4 16 to now)
Is there a source for the 300k? Does the proposal work irrespective of the actual cost?
Sister Sara
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That is not true. Rents began to increase from 2013 after hitting a low (following the economic crash). It wasnt until Dec 2016 that RPZ's were introduced.
Otherwise what you are saying is that the government introduced rent pressure zones when the rents were decreasing?!?!?
That, with respect, makes no sense and as much as we can pillar our politicians over a lot of things that is not one of them.
Yes, out of my imagination. Please feel free to use your own figures, real-time or any other example and the come back to me to tell me why the proposal cannot, or wont work.
It is - your own data screenshot showed it. I referenced it in my earlier post (below). Rents did decrease in the absence of RPZs. Since RPZs have been introduced, they have only increased.
I find it difficult to engage if your proposals to deal with the housing shortage are based on imaginary numbers. As per the Society of Chartered Surveyors Ireland (SCSI) 2025 report, the "all-in" cost to deliver a new two-bedroom apartment ranges from between €480,000 and €680,000. Do you still think your proposal is affordable for the state?
Sister Sara
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They also increased in the absence of RPZ's. This is obvious, from the screenshot. Again, I ask you, are you saying that the government introduced RPZ's during a period when there was no increases in rents?
I'm not disputing that rents have continued to increase since RPZ's were introduced. Again, I have to say, I think you are arguing points that are simply not there.
My underlying point is that the structure of the Irish rental market is not suited to boom, bust, boom, undersupply, oversupply etc. I identify small LL's who take properties for one generation into the rental market and then sell those properties (on retirement etc) which reduces the supply of rental properties as part of structure deficiency - nothing personal on them, they are simply operating in the conditions we all live in.
We now have the double-whammy of government interference combining with rental properties of small LL's where many were obtained during the free-flowing credit Celtic Tiger period and are now ripe for sale back into the property market in the absence of similar credit that the CT had to facilitate new, prospective landlords to sustain the rental stock.
Small LL's, through no fault of their own, do not have the capacity to ensure the continuation of rental properties to be available as such for future generations.
Corporations, Governments, State Agencies have more capacity to do so, as by definition they intend to exist beyond one generation.
That said, to show I'm not anti-the evil, greedy, landlord, I made a simple proposal that I would consider may go some way to keeping a supply of rental units to meet the demand of the rental market, providing stability for all in the sector and facilitating the small LL to remain an important cog in the rental market.
Furthermore, imo, it provides for a decent yield on the investment for the landlord, it provides for capital gains on the investment. It provides for security of tenure - up to lifetime tenancies, it provides for a real competitive alternative to people settling down with wage-sapping mortgages for 25-30yrs.
I'm not saying it is a panacea, not saying it is wholly viable, but surely it is at least worth a consideration if indeed it would provide for a stable stock of rental properties in the State for multi-generations?
Sister Sara
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Yes, why not?
There’s a well know line from that Big Yellow Taxi song that some haters of small landlords should think about.
Sister Sara
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This was all already acknowledged by me. I've already answered your question. See below.
As your numbers were so far off. You assumed 300k cost of a dwelling, when actual costs to build a 2 bed apt can be over over 2 times that.
Sister Sara
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Yes, as an example figure. I then suggested
So have you any reason why it wouldn't work?
If there is a valid reason I'll happily accept it won't work. Do you have a valid reason?
imalwayshappy
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Just going back to the original question re self contained units. You have the right as outlined under section 25, however assuming its a pre March lease, you do have the option to terminate to move a family member into the apartment? Could you not say that its now needed as a study room for your child who lives in the house?