Lack of trains and lack of catering on trains.

[jim]

Political will.

Thats what it boils down to. The lack of which is why the NW is so badly served.

The arguement re population doesnt hold when you consider some urban areas, it would pass through, have a population similar to other parts of country.

The cost argument doesnt hold when you consider there must be other train routes across the country that operate at a loss.

Yes, it would cost a lot of money to implement and would be probably loss-making but so what. Why shouldnt the people of the NW have infrastructure similar to those of the SW or the SE or the West. Why not? They are equal citizens with equal needs.

The A5 recently took a knock, and its well documented how treacherous it is.

The NW is simply under served and that is not fair or equitible and should be addresed. And yet, those with access to trains and motorways continue to moan that they want catering and they want routes extended and they want more and more.

 

[faketales]

You can close a route - but you can also ensure you still maintain control of the land involved in case you ever change your mind - they didn't even do that or least not in any way that it would ever be feasible to reopen a line.

Where did the land go? Farmers?

The state has the lowest of one of the lowest percentages of land in its control in Europe. The majority of which is controlled for business purposes by Coilte.

It seems a cultural thing going back to the Land Act to not protect state land.

 

[T McGibney]

Where did the land go? Farmers?

They offered it in strips to local farmers, free of charge. I have it on good if anecdotal authority that many farmers refused to assume ownership of the strips offered to them, for fear of assuming liability for accidents on the property and also for the upkeep of bridges, shores etc.

 

[faketales]

Why not put it to private tender?

Did they not do that? And the responses dictated it would only work on the cork Dublin and Dublin Belfast routes.

I imagine the busiest of the long routes.

(I suspect Kerry people are too cute to pay some of the prices they charge…)

 

[TomEdison]

Future president Erskine Childers who was the minister at the time had seemingly said that the train service could be replaced by 15 road vehicles. The equivalent of saying why do we've a train service from Dublin to Cork - when we could easily squeeze the passengers of one train into several buses and cars.

There's more to it than that. The road vehicle alternative was attractive because

• It would be quicker. The rail journey took 2 hrs 15 minutes; even in 1961 the road journey was at least half an hour quicker.
• It could offer a much more frequent service. Because it was a single track line, the rail service only operated twice a day.

The argument in favour of the buses was not, therefore, mainly one of saving money (though that was CIE's motivation) but of improving the service. The same arguments wouldn't apply in relation to the Cork-Dublin service (then or now).

 

[Purple]

The cost argument doesnt hold when you consider there must be other train routes across the country that operate at a loss.

They all operate at a loss. That's not the point.

Yes, it would cost a lot of money to implement and would be probably loss-making but so what.

There's no probably about it. It would be cheaper to pay for a taxi for every user and for them to stop off for a carvery lunch on the way. It would a monumental waste of money.

Why shouldnt the people of the NW have infrastructure similar to those of the SW or the SE or the West. Why not? They are equal citizens with equal needs.

Per capita they have vastly more spent on them than people in urban areas. That's the way it should be but there has to be some semblance of a value for money assessment.

 

[rob oyle]

As a native of Donegal, I can understand the romantic desire to have trains running to the county (my parents both have memories of getting the trams that ran in the county before they closed), but it is really not feasible. The rail review under the last Government had a spur from Derry to Letterkenny (for political reasons I think) but if it was to be a feasible train line, a more direct connection to Dublin would be needed - of course, this *could* include Lifford/Omagh/Enniskillen/Cavan/Kells/Navan.
I would hope that investment in the county would be on things that could make a real difference to those living there, principally health and healthcare infrastructure. As long as we prefer to live in, and build, one-off housing (in full view of this resultant lack of sustainability), we will struggle to built infrastructure around population centres, for obvious reasons.

 

[BIG-notorious]

I would hope that investment in the county would be on things that could make a real difference to those living there, principally health and healthcare infrastructure.

Maybe if there was a decent rail link to Sligo then young people might hang around more instead of leaving for college and in many cases never coming back? So many young people move permanently because commuting to college either daily or weekly just isn't a viable option, and renting can be as affordable and far more convenient than commuting.

Health & healthcare infrastructure are important, but if you want your region to thrive you need the things which make it good for young people- and one of those things is a comfortable way of travelling without needing to buy a car. And if young people hang around, they effectively become a part of the healthcare infrastructure for the previous generations.

A focus on the narrow up front capital cost comparisons between option A and option B has produced many poor long term outcomes. Unfortunately voters want instant gratification which means long term outcomes are mostly irrelevant to the political calculus.

 

[ArthurMcB]

I go back to an earlier point. Its the only part of the country that has, to a large extent, NO infrastructure (no train, no motorway). This isnt right or fair for the significant population of the region. Its that simple. As much as one may try, theres no real argument that justifies this neglect.

 

[ArthurMcB]

As a native of Donegal, I can understand the romantic desire to have trains running to the county (my parents both have memories of getting the trams that ran in the county before they closed), but it is really not feasible. The rail review under the last Government had a spur from Derry to Letterkenny (for political reasons I think) but if it was to be a feasible train line, a more direct connection to Dublin would be needed - of course, this *could* include Lifford/Omagh/Enniskillen/Cavan/Kells/Navan.
I would hope that investment in the county would be on things that could make a real difference to those living there, principally health and healthcare infrastructure. As long as we prefer to live in, and build, one-off housing (in full view of this resultant lack of sustainability), we will struggle to built infrastructure around population centres, for obvious reasons.

You say 'romantic', i say practical.

You say spur was for 'political reasons', i say it was for connectivity between two urban centers.

You say bringing such infrastructure to Donegal, to bring it on par with everywhere else, would not make a real difference to those living there? I bet it would make a positive difference in several ways and would be hugely beneficial to the region economically.

As a native of donegal, your short sighted apathy is probably partly why this has not happened yet for the region.

 

[ashambles]

There's more to it than that. The road vehicle alternative was attractive because

• It would be quicker. The rail journey took 2 hrs 15 minutes; even in 1961 the road journey was at least half an hour quicker.

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cork,_Bandon_and_South_Coast_Railway the time from Cork to Bantry in 1948 via train including 9 stops was 1hr 59 for the 12:11 service to Bantry. In 2008 that wiki gives a figure of 1hr 30 to drive, these days it's probably about 1 hour 10 when you don't get stuck in traffic leaving Cork.

I'm not sure if in 1961 with then roads and no stretches of dual-carriageway that it was 30 mins faster than a 2 hour train (on a good day) in the cars of the era. But two services a day wasn't good, trains could pass at stations so they could easily have run more services if the demand was there.

CIE were disregarding the previous owners investment in infrastructure that in todays terms would cost billions to put in place. Had CIE been the one to put in the infrastructure I think they'd have run it at a loss until they figured out how to run it at a profit.

This wasn't an unlamented closed branch line consisting of rails and sleepers across 20 miles of fields, it was one of the more impressive engineering works performed in Ireland in the 1800's - tunnels, viaducts, bridges, stations. Had someone destroyed it as effectively via bombing instead of disinterest we'd likely be calling it national sabotage.

One reason I was told for the land disposal method was to deliberately make it almost impossible for a government to force them to reopen the line once it was closed. But in any case from CIE's point of view they couldn't afford to maintain a closed line - they needed it out of their ownership and also not in the hands of someone who might try to reopen the line independently of CIE.

 

[faketales]

As long as we prefer to live in, and build, one-off housing (in full view of this resultant lack of sustainability), we will struggle to built infrastructure around population centres, for obvious reasons.

Working in local government elsewhere in the world density was a huge issue for local governments who basically funded themselves via property taxes.

Even though rural areas had nothing like the one off housing we have in Ireland it still ment their property taxes were high and services poorer and it was understood density was the only way.

In Ireland with the relatively central tax system local authorities don’t need to make the same choices. Money can just be redistributed.

On a separate point our housing density really is one of our biggest problems. When we look at healthcare or infrastructure. We can spend more and get less results because of it.

 

[rob oyle]

Maybe if there was a decent rail link to Sligo then young people might hang around more instead of leaving for college and in many cases never coming back? So many young people move permanently because commuting to college either daily or weekly just isn't a viable option, and renting can be as affordable and far more convenient than commuting.

Health & healthcare infrastructure are important, but if you want your region to thrive you need the things which make it good for young people- and one of those things is a comfortable way of travelling without needing to buy a car. And if young people hang around, they effectively become a part of the healthcare infrastructure for the previous generations.

A focus on the narrow up front capital cost comparisons between option A and option B has produced many poor long term outcomes. Unfortunately voters want instant gratification which means long term outcomes are mostly irrelevant to the political calculus.

If there was a rail link to Sligo (and on to Dublin), students studying in Sligo may commute but I doubt anyone going further would do so. Remember, the train from Sligo to.Dublin is three hours - the bus from Letterkenny to Dublin is four hours.

Certainly a train line might make Donegal a more desirable place to live or visit, and might mean more graduates would live in Donegal because of greater opportunities, but that's not in place now and the long-term plans needed would have to include a realisation that a feeder population is needed. Donegal.already has a transportation white elephant in the airport - services less than 10,000 people within 45 minutes of it.

In a circumstance of limited financial resources, deciding what to prioritise is important and I can't see rail links to Donegal being justified. I might like the idea but I can't argue for it.

 

[rob oyle]

I go back to an earlier point. Its the only part of the country that has, to a large extent, NO infrastructure (no train, no motorway). This isnt right or fair for the significant population of the region. Its that simple. As much as one may try, theres no real argument that justifies this neglect.

With the possible exception of a motorway from Letterkenny in the general direction of Dublin, such infrastructure is not merited. There is already a dual carriageway from Letterkenny to Derry and that's 40 minutes on the bus (even with multiple stops). The county is covered in isolated populations, infrastructure designed to deal with high volumes may be desirable but not justifiable. Any sense of neglect should seek support for sustainable measures.

 

[rob oyle]

You say 'romantic', i say practical.

You say spur was for 'political reasons', i say it was for connectivity between two urban centers.

You say bringing such infrastructure to Donegal, to bring it on par with everywhere else, would not make a real difference to those living there? I bet it would make a positive difference in several ways and would be hugely beneficial to the region economically.

As a native of donegal, your short sighted apathy is probably partly why this has not happened yet for the region.

It's been two decades since I lived in Letterkenny but even then, it was very well connected to Derry - they're about 25 miles apart and there were buses over and back every half hour - no train service could compete. Plus being the terminal on a train line requires a higher threshold of population - if I can explain myself correctly, the case for a train line from Thurles to Dublin would be weak, but the case for a station on the Cork - Dublin line would be much easier.
I'm not saying there wouldn't be some benefit to a train bring brought into Donegal but when you've only such much capital to go around, there are other infrastructure investments that would make the lives in the county better off.

 

[Fortune]

There is already a dual carriageway from Letterkenny to Derry

Where?

 

[rob oyle]

Where?

https://www.askaboutireland.ie/reading-room/environment-geography/transport/bypasses-flyovers-and-fer/letterkenny-dual-carraige/

I guess I should clarify that the dual carriageway is only on the southern side of the border and doesn't cover the full distance of the route.

 

[Fortune]

I guess I should clarify that the dual carriageway is only on the southern side of the border and doesn't cover the full distance of the route.

It ends 18km away from the border at Strabane and 23km away from the border at Derry. The length of the dual carriageway itself is 4km.

 

[rob oyle]

The point remains that Letterkenny and Derry are already well connected and a rail line between the two doesn't make sense. The Minister for Transport seemed to want to solve the 'problem' of Donegal not having a railway in the rail review and this was the cheapest option. I doubt he would ever have pushed for it to come to fruition.
North Donegal's transport links to Dublin are much more important than to Belfast and any idea that a rail connection to Derry, then Belfast, then Dublin would be an enhancement on this doesn't make logical sense.

 

[ArthurMcB]

In a circumstance of limited financial resources, deciding what to prioritise is important and I can't see rail links to Donegal being justified. I might like the idea but I can't argue for it

But why is the north west not treated the same as the rest of the country? Again the cost and population argument is being made but neither stack up. Of course it would cost a fortune and be loss making - but its the same for everywhere else. There is a significant population, as much so as in other parts such as west of ireland and parts of midlands - but why is a route to the north west viewed differently?

These are weak, selfish, data-less arguments made by those that simply already have these services, wont benefit from them being provided to the NW and so dont want to see our scarce resourses applied here - regardless of the obvious fact that the NW is neglected in this regard.

With the possible exception of a motorway from Letterkenny in the general direction of Dublin, such infrastructure is not merited

This is exactly whats needed - a motorway from the north west in general direction of dublin and/or a train link. We agree.

The point remains that Letterkenny and Derry are already well connected and a rail line between the two doesn't make sense.

Nobody is calling for this specifically. Whats needed is better links from dublin to the NW via motorway and/or rail taking in all key populations along the way aka monaghan, omagh, strabane and stopping at either derry or letterkenny. Derry, as you correctly say, is already well enough linked to letterkenny.

Again - its clear this would be costly and again - its clear there arent huge populations involved here. However, there are still significant polulations and the people of this region deserve to have infrastructural access like the rest of the country has and benefit economically from it.

Arguments again are from those, I suspect, that have no interest in it.