Kitchen company delaying installation - no survey done - want deposit returned

[Mothergoose]

I am putting in a new kitchen - a badly needed one. I used a company that I knew from about 12 years ago who did a great job on a kitchen we got installed then. They are supposed to organise a complete installation service. Their rep told me the they project manage the installation and I could use their trades or get my own. I chose to you their trades as I did not want the hassle of getting these myself and I am also short time to do this.

The old kitchen was supposed to be removed next Thurs - I was told the tiler would do that - the tiler today said it wasn't his job that he takes it out with the help of the plumber and electrician.

No surveys were done until today and only after I pushed it. The plumber and electrician went out today and found issues with the design and size of kitchen cabinets in relation to free standing appliances - they said one of the cupboards might be too large and that we needed 50mm kick boards and not 20mm. The plumber took the measurements for the tiler for the tiles - as the tiler for the second time let us down - he was supposed to call out on Thursday and he was supposed to go in the car with the plumber and electrician today but didn't. He rang me earlier today to say that he would talk to the plumber and electrician about what they noticed in my kitchen and get the measurements for the tiles from them and ring me this evening - he didn't. He couldn't give me a date today for when he would, with his plumber and electrician mates, start taking out the kitchen.

The owner of the kitchen company had, in writing, given me a date of the 16th and 17th for the removal of the kitchen. My son and daughter were going to move out to friends' houses for those days and for the installation date as they both work from home and the noise would be disruptive.

I have asked several times when I need to get a skip but no one has come back to me. The owner of the kitchen company and his young rep have been trying to get in contact with the trades for three weeks and they are only replying now under pressure. Suddenly, the manager of the kitchen company is deciding that they are not project managers after all. They have 8.5k of my money - 1k I can get back through chargeback on my credit card - the other was a 50% deposit of 7.5k which I did via bank transfer. Some of this is for the appliances for the kitchen which were ordered by them through an electrical company they deal with.

I am so stressed about it. I can't afford to lose 8.5k. I would really appreciate some advice on this situation from anyone who has been in it.

 

[Sue Ellen]

As much as it will probably have you pulling the hair out of your head it looks as if will be best to go with the flow in light of the possibility of the loss of your deposit.

Probably best for your daughter and son to move to their friends houses on the day that the work starts rather than any promised date because tradespeople are notorious these days for running into time delays on previous jobs.

Having watched some consumer shows recently there does not appear to be much help out there for people in situations like this, no legislation to help, and no Regulator to contact. Going through the courts would most likely be too expensive.

You could try mentioning to the owner of the company that you will have to get in touch with maybe someone like Conor Pope or the Eoin McGee show for their advice on the matter and the bad publicity won't help his company, but he probably won't care.

I know its easy for me to say but I do feel if you can stress less about it, it most likely will get sorted in the long term as the company will want the rest of the money. Unfortunately in the environment that we live in at the moment the trades people will do it when they are good and ready. Best of luck with it and I can only say, been there, done that etc.

 

[Bronte]

Did the kitchen company not send out their fitter to measure up before the kitchen was ordered? I find it odd that the tiler, plumber or electrician would be involved in the removal.

Can you be very specific on what it is the job entails. The tiler can’t tile until the kitchen is fitted. Who buys the tiles. Did you pick them.

- removal of old kitchen and put in skip 17 April
- disconnect water to sink
- disconnect electricity to hob and oven
- remove wall tiles
- prepare walls for new kitchen, plastering
- fitter installs new kitchen on x April
- electrician connects hob and oven
- plumber plumbs sink and dishwasher
- what about flooring
- tiler does the wall tiles

The kitchen company will want your money. They presumably have ordered the appliances and manufactured the units. I think I’d let the kitchen company do the running around. After all that’s the service you booked!

The plumber and electrician are not helpful telling you the ordered units won’t fit, the fitter (carpenter) is key here. If the unit are incorrect this can be fixed by fitter, and if not, new units ordered, not on your dime though.

 

[PMU]

I see I’m not the only one dealing with problems relating to the purchase / installation of a new kitchen. I can understand how stressed you are, as I’ve been left without a sink, dishwasher or hob over the Easter period. I'm hoping they are connected this week (or maybe the week after). So I did some research on consumer law in this situation. Briefly:

When you buy goods and services, you are making a contract with the seller. As parties to the agreement, both you and the seller have certain legal rights and obligations. Irish consumer law requires that goods and services be delivered within the timeframe agreed or, if no date was agreed, within 30 days. https://www.gov.ie/en/department-of...consumer-dispute-resolution-and-compensation/.

The statutory reference is The Consumer Rights Act 2022, Section 36 (Delivery of Goods), uses the phrase: “within the time agreed by the trader and the consumer, or if no time is agreed, within 30 days of the date on which the contract is concluded.”

As you have made a payment you have a contract (this is from common law) and if the seller fails to supply the goods/services you have rights of redress. If your purchase does not arrive within 30 days you are entitled to decide a new delivery date, in which your purchase must be delivered by or, you can cancel your order and get a full refund.

Late or non-delivery - European Consumer Centre Ireland

Use this letter template if your order has not arrived and you wish to contact the business for a refund or replacement.

www.eccireland.ie

There is more info here: What to do when a service is not provided - CCPC Consumers

 

[S class]

This is appalling messing.

It's mind boggling that a tiler (a tradesman skilled working with his hands) cannot turn off the electricity supply and disconnect a few wires and tape up the exposed copper conductors. It is equally mind boggling that the tiler cannot figure out how to turn off the water supply and cap off the supply pipes.

These trades work alongside each other daily. Do they not learn anything about the other trades. I learned most trade skills over the years from observing other skilled experts.

Reading this I realise how lucky I am. I can do my own carpentry, plumbing, electrical, tiling, general building maintenance.

Doing woodwork and metalwork at post primary level was very beneficial.

 

[BlackandBlue]

It's mind boggling that a tiler (a tradesman skilled working with his hands) cannot turn off the electricity supply and disconnect a few wires and tape up the exposed copper conductors. It is equally mind boggling that the tiler cannot figure out how to turn off the water supply and cap off the supply pipes.

I rather suspect it's more to do with "the blame game".
They are contracted to perform a service/role and are reluctant to exceed their remit should there be a future dispute.
The days of getting a "handyman" do do jobs is fading fast.

 

[Bronte]

I rather suspect it's more to do with "the blame game".

I’d say it’s more a fight over who spends time on the kitchen removal. Last year when we needed two 20 year old kitchens gone, instead of doing it an ad was put in Donedeal (I think that’s what it’s called) 2 men removed the kitchen units for use elsewhere and turned off water etc. Zero cost.

The OP should not have to navigate this since she has an all in price that was supposed to make it seamless. The service she’s receiving is appalling.

 

[Mothergoose]

Hi! All,

Thanks for the advice. I am so stressed and so upset. So I emailed the kitchen company over the weekend and told them I would give them until Wednesday to reply - the kitchen was supposed to be installed on Thursday, they were supposed to give me several days' notice for me to get a skip. They, so far today, have not replied to my emails, in which I stated that the plumber and electrician had found design issues, i.e. that the kickboard would need to be 50mm rather than 20mm or there would be a gap, and that the washing machine would stick out - freestanding - as the cupboard the kitchen company had designed was too big. Initially, the kitchen company had given the rear elevation of the drawings to the electrician and plumber so they didn't realise the job was more extensive than it was, i.e. that a washing machine and heat pump dryer was going in where drawers were previously.

As of today the electrician has given me a quote of 3k for the electrical work, the tiler has said he would have a quote to me yesterday but didn't, the plumber hasn't replied. The electrician said he would be speaking to the kitchen company this morning and they would contact me today but there has been radio silence.

They have 8.5k - this includes about 3k for appliances - only 1k on a card - the rest was by bank transfer.

I would welcome some advice on this. I am so stressed about it and really worried that I won't get the 8.5k back.

 

[peemac]

Put everything on pause.

Current kitchen is still in place and my guess is usable.

Giving ultimatums very rarely works with anybody - the fuel protests were a classic example of that on a grander scale. Kickboards are a very minor part and very easily replaced if sizing is wrong.

My guess is they don't have their own employed team and they are contracting out - most likely adding 20% to the quoted prices themselves. So the solution is to reset - email them in a more conciliatory manner and say that starting this week is probably not feasible for anyone at this point and lets make a new date that will suit everyone.

I'd look at taking on a tiler / electrician / fitter directly (tiler/electrician will likely know someone or ask people you know if they have a recommendation)

I'd suggest a date in about 4/5 weeks time. Look at the comments form the tiler / electrician, make an appointment to visit the kitchen place and bring those comments with you and then get the final design signed off on. If you go the route of your own fitter, its then just delivery of the units and appliances (another area where most will add 20% to the price for the hassle of supply).


But trying to make it happen this week is just going to bring on huge headaches and that's best avoided

 

[Mothergoose]

Thanks, Peemac.

After I texted the electrician to confirm that he had spoken to the kitchen company - had to ask him twice as the first response was a quote from the plumber - he said he had been in contact with the kitchen company. I said then that I was giving them until Wednesday to reply and then seeking a full refund and through my solicitor if needed. Five minutes later the owner of the company rang to say that the trades were contracted through them, that they were very disappointed in how they had acted - delay and more delay - as they had worked with these trades for several years.

However, I am not sure how much real effort they made to contact them. They have offered a full refund or a date in May/June - I can't do May but can do June. The kitchen definitely isn't going to be fitted this week, but I am afraid to trust them again. We had it all arranged that my children, and the dog, would move out of the house for the two days of removal and installation. I am afraid the same issues will arise if I go with them but I don't want to go with a kitchen company that does not provide a full service.

 

[Persia]

Get full refund and get another competent company. I would have zero confidence in them now.

 

[Saturn]

If you go the route of your own fitter, its then just delivery of the units and appliances (another area where most will add 20% to the price for the hassle of supply)

Just to note that supply only kitchen units attract a Vat rate of 23% as against a rate of 13.5% for supply and fit. You could get supply and fit and still look after the removal of old kitchen, plumbing, electrics, etc. independently.

I would guess that supplying your own fitter could complicate matters in the event of subsequent issues arising, ie, blaming each other.

 

[peemac]

I'd actually believe them on the issue with trades people - I'm currently awaiting a plumber (booked for next week - was meant to be here last week), had to wait 4 weeks for a chimney sweep and 3 weeks for someone to cut back some large trees and even then there were two postponements.

If they've offered a refund, then that would actually show me they have a bit of credibility. Also you were happy with their previous work, and that should count as something. If June suits, then book the date in June, make sure everything is measured correctly and the date fixed in stone.

But above all, just don't go down the "I'll go through solicitors" route - the world and its mother knows that, firstly, you most likely won't and secondly of you did, it could take 2 years and a lot of headache and an awful lot of expense only to be sorted on the steps of the courthouse 2 years later.

It also destroys any bargaining power you may have - the absolute best bargaining power is you were a previous customer and potentially a future customer if you decide to change again in 15 years time

 

[Bronte]

They have offered a full refund or a date in May/June

I would take the full refund. It's clear that the kitchen company is not getting a lot right. They didn't sort out the trades and gave the electrician the wrong plans. In addition the washing machine would stick out and the kickboard size was incorrect.

Are the dishwasher/washing machine/hob and oven going back into the same place as currently?

This is what I would do:

- cancel kitchen and get full refund. Be clear it's a full refund in writing of the exact amount you have paid them.
- Find a really good handyman, one who can do both plumbing and electrics for a new kitchen, get a quote from him, tell him exactly what you need doing, he might even be able to tile (splash backs are not complicated)
- order a new kitchen - fitted- do not get your own fitter, this makes the kitchen company responsible for what arrives and it's correct fitting
- new order should specify exactly what is to be done, and what should fit where, they MUST measure for you. Otherwise they are not serious people.
- put pictures of your current kitchen up on done deal and say 'free kitchen' you should be able to get someone to come and take it out, someone who knows how to disconnect cooker and turn off the water.
- you'll save on a skip this way
- you can take down the tiles yourself, bring to your local skip

You need to know the following:

- where is your stop cock
- where is your fuse board

If you're not up to the above, then find a new kitchen company who will include everything.

I'm very confused as to how the electrician is quoting you 3K, was the price for the trades not included because you said:

hey are supposed to organise a complete installation service.

 

[Mothergoose]

Thank you all for the advice.

The owner offered me a new date of May/June or a full refund. I chose the refund. I just felt the same issues would arise again. I asked for the refund to be paid directly for the whole amount, and he said their accountant would be in tomorrow and she would sort it. Hopefully, that's true. It was such a stressful experience.

I'm going to leave the kitchen for a couple of months but look around for a kitchen company who has their own trades as in they are their employees or a kitchen company who has a builder onside. It is worth it to me in terms of stress and time to just have someone do the whole lot and properly project manage it. I don't mind paying a bit extra for this.

Bronte re the electrician, I felt I was being had. So the kitchen is very small and was 16k for the kitchen and all appliances. The deal was that the trades were the ones the Kitchen Company used and if I agreed to go with their trades they would liaise with them and project manage the installation - of course that is not what happened. So the electrician was charging 3k for moving the oven - the hob is staying in the same place - rewiring the fan/cooker hood, putting in new wiring for the washing machine -which was previously in the shed and and also wiring/socket for heat pump dryer, the wiring for the dishwasher was already there. He wanted to rewire the current strip lights but really I think they just need new strip lights - he said he had to put in isolator switches and that was in the bill too. So when I asked the electrician this morning if he had been in contact with the Kitchen Company as he said he would be first thing on Monday morning, as he said the Kitchen Company would then contact me, he didn't reply to this but gave the plumber's quote which was 1700 for installing a washing machine, the plumbing for the dishwasher and the sink are already there. I hadn't gotten the tiler's quote yet. I felt I was being rightly ripped off.

 

[Bronte]

I think you’re being had. The washing machine should be linked into the current plumbing. There’s no digging?

I’ve purchased two kitchens last year, large was 10k fitted with fridge freezer, hob, extractor, oven, small dishwasher. Really really lovely. For a rental but it’s smashing. Tradesmen we had separate because it was a major renovation. So I can’t break down the price. Can’t understand how you’re at 16k. Also, what’s wrong with your current kitchen which seems to be only 12 years old.

Dearly love to know what you’re getting for 16 K in a “small” kitchen without the trades. If it’s 16+ 3 sparks+ 2 plumber + tiler + skip we are near 25k in the blink of an eye!

Have you a granite worktop?

 

[Mothergoose]

Hi! Bronte, no granite worktop, just laminate.

The kitchen itself came to 12.3k and the appliances were 3k - dishwasher, hob, oven, hood, washing machine and heat pump dryer. I was buying mid range - not the cheapest - I think the dryer was 769. I was buying through their suppliers, but honestly, I think I could get cheaper in Power City.

Re the stop cock and the fuse board - I don't know where the stop cock is but I am sure I could find it. Re the fuse board - it's in the hallway but all the wiring for our solar panels is also there, so don't want the complication of our solar electrics being knocked off and the hassle of getting them to work again, but maybe it wouldn't be that difficult.

I agree I was being had. The kitchen is only 12 years old but the house had been rented out for a while, and then my college going children and lodgers so it's worn. I got it repainted at a cost of 1700 two years ago, but it chipped really quickly afterwards and I don't want to throw more money at it. The kitchen I had chosen was pvc so hard wearing. If it doesn't work out with a full installation, I have a maintenance company that I call on to do bits of work in my own house and they could take out the kitchen and do the electrics and plumbing. I think they have tilers too.

 

[Bronte]

Is this a rental? Can you post up a picture of the current kitchen please.

 

[Mothergoose]

Hi! Bronte, it's not a rental any more. I am moving back in there and want a nice kitchen as I love to cook - well small and nice. I don't have a photo of the original kitchen but I will post one from the designer - no identifying features.

 

[BlackandBlue]

1. rewire the current strip lights
2. moving the oven
3. rewiring the fan/cooker hood
4. putting in new wiring for the washing machine
5. wiring/socket for heat pump dryer
6. he said he had to put in isolator switches

I have a feeling that this project was a bit more involved than people envisaged.

Its good that the OP is getting her deposit back.
Now she can move on.