Key Post: geothermal heating system/ground source heat pump

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z102

Guest
Re: >>Geothermal heating system/Ground Source Heat Pump

Hi builder !
What exactly is Xtratherm ? If it is EPS ( expanded polystyrene ) beads than the
U-value of a cavity wall would be better indeed by using them as compared with the standard sheets of the same material . But that's it . Once you have filled the cavity the specific U-value has reached it's maximum . Instead of going for the standard U-value you should consider to go for something better. For example by building only a single leaf wall and insulating this from the outside with 40-50 cm polystyrene sheeting glued and anchored .This would give you a much higher heat retention . Or you could go for some other method . But keep in mind that building regulations concerning the U-value are minimum regulations, not the optimum. A standard home today will be a substandard home tomorrow .
 

yop

Frequent Poster
Messages
390
Re: >>Geothermal heating system/Ground Source Heat Pump

Lads,
how did ye get on with Climate Control, I am looking at their DX system as opposed to the brine system, it has a high COP of 5.6 which is the best I can find out there.
SWECO broke my heart, could get no real sense out of them at all, went on about how Ashp is more efficent than a GSHP or a bore hole, after much research and talking to a few non biased people ASHP is probably the least efficent.

Heinbloed - the condenser boiler sounds interesting, a view I have not looked at. It has been a while since you posted prices, how are they running now for LPG and the likes, you have a big tank outside and the boiler inside I presume?
 
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z102

Guest
Re: >>Geothermal heating system/Ground Source Heat Pump

The LPG price is 35 cents per liter . €0.35/l .If someone

else has a better price - here is the place to put it .The company I'm buying from is Tervas from Cork. The same price as last year . Could any one be better ?!
I filled my 1400 l tank before it was empty , at 18% . Just a month ago . And this filling would last 'till next year October/December . If the climate doesn't change too much ....
Forget air sourced heat pumps , yop . Condensing boilers are getting cheaper and better . Check the modulating ones running on LPG or natural gas . The better ones are modulating down to 4 or 4.5 kw/h . Have you checked the Sedbuk page recently ? Even the oil fed condensing boilers are coming up in choice and design .Only if you have a smaller demand than the 4-4.5 kw/h for the entire house a different heating supply would be financially interesting .
1 kw of electricity at peak time has to be produced with 3 kw primary energy from the grid , at least . So the environment would be better off as well.
 

yop

Frequent Poster
Messages
390
Re: >>Geothermal heating system/Ground Source Heat Pump

Ok, so been totally lazy, sorry! but based on your knowledge why would you install a condensing boiler above a GSHP?
On our own case we are currently build a timberframe and are installing UFH to run at 35 deg C (just a closer run together of the pipes on the floor means more heat coverage) and are considering using a GSHP for our heat and DHW supply.

Personally I would did not think that a solar panel would be sufficent to give us heat and DHW, tbh I have not done mental investigation on this and the payback for solar is high based on its return (again this is the impression I have got from places on the internet)

We are looking at using a DX system with the refrigerant instead of the brine system. This Heliotherm heatpump is given a COP of 5.6 which from all the GSHP we looked it is definately the highest.

We also looked at ASHP but to be honest I was not impressed.

Also looked at a bore hole but it was going to cost us about 6k more to install, all in.

Based on cost and performance, if you had the land and no neighbours with trees (as in our case ;) ) why would you not got for GSHP and why would you go with Condensing boilers which use a non renewable resource?

Thanks for your advice
 
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z102

Guest
Re: >>Geothermal heating system/Ground Source Heat Pump






Because of the high costs combined with a limited output . If you plan to a.) extend your heating demand - what then ? . Or b.) if you want to sell - tell the seller that he has no choice of extending the building ? Or c.) where do you get the electricity from ? It costs , no matter how green it is made . It costs the highest price of all fuels per kilowatt delivered .




Once the energy stored in the ground is exhausted - what then ? Relying totally on electricity ? One month of heating with electricity per year is more expensive then running a condensing boiler on gas for 12 month . Or so .

What sort of refrigerant is the heliotherm using ?

The energetic payback of a heat pump depends on the amount of extractable heat . Giving a flat figure -like 5.6 for example- is not a serious calculation but a lure, a bait. It mainly depends on the meters of coil in the ground , on the heat in the ground and on the demand in the house .A flat figure is therefore not trustable. The 5.6 are probably based on ideal , calculated conditions .Not on reality at the site.

The ground will get colder as longer the pump runs. This is usually not in the amortisation figures included . You will get little heat out of the soil once the pump had been running for a few month . And the lack of soil output has to be made up with peak demand electricity. " Peak demand " because you want it warm during the day . Speak to someone who has one installed is my advice . Don't trust the sellers using ball park figures .

Making up for this fact by just installing more loops in the ground will create higher running costs ( electric pump !) all the time . The longer the pipe the more energy it costs to get a media through it . Due to increased friction .

Ask the manufacturers about the points I made . And again : talk to someone with a similar property/heat demand and let them show the electricity bills for the last few years , at least two heating seasons are necessary to judge .
 

turtle77

Frequent Poster
Messages
156
Has anyone recent experience of Geothermal?
I'm looking for info from people who have had it installed in the last 12 months.
Is it worth it?
 

laserjet

Registered User
Messages
10
hi,

also interested in anyone who has installed a geothermal system or the pellet system. Does anyone know which is better, or more efficient.

Also I received quote for a geothermal system however they included quote for ventilation system at €6000. My question is, is this ventilation system required or just an unnecessary expense.
 

laserjet

Registered User
Messages
10
hi turtle 77,

Dont have the quote in front of me but as far as I Remember the cheapest quote was €18000 thats after the grant which I Calculated at €4500. The most expensive quote we got was €25000 that also was after grant deductions, but they were including €6000 for ventilation system.

The house is 2700sq ft but I dont think that actually makes any difference as I know somebody who built house 1600sq ft and I think they paid €24000 that was only a year so you can already see a drop in price from €24000 - €18000

Hope that helps

If anyone has any info on pellet system would be much appreciated
 

turtle77

Frequent Poster
Messages
156
It does help Laser; thanks.
We're applying for PP soon; our house will probbaly be about the same size as yours; a bit smaller maybe.
A friend of my Dad's is a plumber - he said pellets ahve gone up in price by 40% over the last year or so. That would be a concern of mine.
 
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z102

Guest
All energy prices will go up, as long as one has to buy energy one has to pay for it. The everlasting boiler -the sun- runs for free, tap into it.
Pellet prices have gone up inded. 20-40% per year.And the forests are shrinking faster then our fossile fuel fields. And no way to discover "new" forests......
For about 5% of the building sum of a standard home one could turn the project into a "zero energy building". No further bills for energy, no matter what the world economy brings.
Make sure you're talking about the same thing as your sales men: a geothermal heating system is NOT to be compared with a ground source heat exchanger. See here http://iga.igg.cnr.it/index.php
 

mickeyg

Frequent Poster
Messages
307
Heinblod, where can I get information on the "zero energy building" you mentioned?

Thnax
 

JKForde

Registered User
Messages
15
hi, does anyone know of a source of up-to-date fuel \ energy prices in Ireland? searched the web but nothing yet...
 
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z102

Guest
To Mickey: check the www, or have a look at these companys who are operating on the continent. Zero Energy Houses for around € 250.000, unfurnished: www.neotron-gmbh.de
and www.weberhaus.de
and www.exnorm.de
and many more. There are as well some manufacturers from English speaking countrys, again, check the web.
The Weber company is very reputeable in Germany, Austria and Switzerland.
And then there is, here in Ireland, an Austrian company to which Dunkin Stewart is connected, but expect another €100.000 extra for the name and the nice design.Has someone the name of it?

Again: the key for a low energy demand is good insulation.
To JFK: try the SEI page, go to the house (or home?) link and click on fuel comparrison sheet. The SEI used to have better information about prices, better updated. Since two years it's rather sporadically maintained, going backwards frequently. In September they give the January prices and October they might give the prices from last jear september etc..
So it's just a rough guide.
 
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pathfinder

Guest
Does anyone know someone who has a Geothermal heating system installed for a few years? I'm looking into this heating system at the moment but I've heard some people say that the electricity bills are expensive to run the system ~€300 per month for the system. Any comments on this?
 

qwerty?

Frequent Poster
Messages
125
Does anyone know someone who has a Geothermal heating system installed for a few years? I'm looking into this heating system at the moment but I've heard some people say that the electricity bills are expensive to run the system ~€300 per month for the system. Any comments on this?

€300 a month sounds just a wee bit excessive. I have it installed a year now, and our heating costs are averaging €90 a month, ranging from €31 for July, to €125 for November, not including Nightsaver
 

yop

Frequent Poster
Messages
390
300 if it done right, we average 15 euro per week on ours over the last 3 months.
 
A

Anne k

Guest
Has anyone used Energy Masters for installation of geo thermal system.
I am hoping to install a geo thermal system with underfloor heating downstairs and rads upstairs. interested in hearing from anyone who has recently installed same or has had dealings with energy master

thanks
anne
 

JoeHooker

Frequent Poster
Messages
69
Anne K

Installing underfloor heating downstairs and rads upstairs is going to cost you, temp for ufh is 20-22 degrees and rads run at about 55 degrees, geothermal can't produce heat at 55 degrees. Meaning you will require a emmersion to heat the remaining water to 55 degrees for your rads.

Also interested in anyone who has installed a Heliotherm system it is the most efficent GHP and i am wondering if anyone has one and what they think of it?

Joe
 
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