Key Post: Buying Greenfield Land with a View to Rezoning

heres an alternative scheme.
moon property
all it takes is a sewerage scheme or a shopping centre and everyone will be quids in :rollin
 
1 - the full price to me of a 400m2 plot (=0.1 acre) (greenfield) is €16k (and not Sterling as I previously indicated).
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Interesting - 400m2 = 0.04 hectares. So you paid a rate of approx €400,000 per hectare for agricultural land. This BBC news article from early this year puts the average price of agricultural land in the south east of England at approx £8k (€11.5k) per hectare - or about one-thirty-fifth of the price you paid. I wonder why.....
 
Thanks for all the advice (particularly Rainyday).

For reasons some of you have already given and for other reasons which I may post later I have decided not to go ahead with the transaction.

I was told at the time (only verbally) that the transaction (i.e. STG£750 'deposit') wouldn't be put onto my credit card for 7 days (and I bought last Sunday afternoon). I was told that I could cancel the transaction before then without charge (i.e. the transaction would never appear on my card) and I was also told that I had a further 7 days after the transaction was put on my card where I could cancel it and get a refund.

The credit card company informed me that it hasn't appeared on my card. Apparently, I can't telll credit card company to refuse payment in advance (even though current payment has not bought me a product or service, all it is doing is reserving a product).

What should I do? Should I phone the company from I whom I had intended buying the land? My fear in that regard is that they will put through the charge on my credit card immediately (in which case I will dispute it with credit card company) or should I find a means of preventing the transaction being honoured even if it attempted to be put through eg my exceeding out my credit limit (by withdrawing money or buying something expensive!).

Thanks again and can anyone provide a speedy suggestion?
 
It kind-of makes sense that the credit card company won't start the dispute process until the transaction actually exists. I would be inclined to put my cancellation in writing to United Land now, and copy this to the credit card company (highlighting the 7-day cancellation option) so you can show that you have been proactive about it. When the transaction actually appears, you should formally dispute it in writing also.
 
I am a bit bemused by all of this. If you want to make this kind of investment, can take the loss of all your investment etc etc etc, why not just get a taxi to Merrion sq/fitzwilliam sq and have a few nights on the blackjack table. Less hassle, and hey , you might get lucky.
 
jdwexford, aren't casinos illegal in Ireland? I suppose it's a question of whether you think the expected margin by the casino holder is greater or less than that of the land agency.

Rainyday, they seem to have acted honourably in the sense that they haven't charged my card. I sent a registered letter and several emails cancelling my intended purchase. Just to be safe though I going to cancel my credit card (and get another one!). I also maxed out my card so that if they try to charge it before my card is cancelled that the transaction will be refused.
 
to be safe though I going to cancel my credit card (and get another one!).
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This will cost you another €40 in stamp duty.

I also maxed out my card so that if they try to charge it before my card is cancelled that the transaction will be refused.
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They may have already submitted an 'authorisation' transaction which reserves a chunk of your credit limit. This transactions are commonly used by online sellers, who will authorise your card for the value of a transaction at the time that you order, but won't actually submit the charge until they physically ship the goods. If they have an authorisation in place, they will be able to submit the charge, regardless of your available credit. Check with your credit card provider to see if such authorisation exists.
 
This will cost you another €40 in stamp duty.

This may not be the case if you can legitimately claim that you were simply [broken link removed]:

Instances where Stamp Duty is not to be charged

A Credit Card account maintained in respect of a Credit Card that has been lost or stolen is not liable to the €40 stamp duty provided the €40 stamp duty is paid on the Credit Card account maintained for the replacement card in the appropriate twelve-month period in which both accounts are maintained by the bank.
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In any case I'm not sure that cancelling the card and maxing it out to the credit limit just to avoid the possibility of an imminent transaction being put through is the most prudent course of action. And as Rainyday says it may not be that effective either.
 
Casinos operate as clubs..
Poker , Blackjack, Kalooki...
 
Hi Folks,

I've read this thread and indeed visited one of the stands at the Money Show where they were selling plots in the UK and Spain. Although the outlay was relatively low (compared to te cost of developed property!), it sounded very much like buying a pig in a poke.

As an alternative to buying land, I would suggest you consider buying ground rents. This is basically buying land on which the building(s) thereon have been sold off on long (50 years plus) leases. They are fairly readily available in the UK on commercial and residential property and can cost from a couple of thousand pounds to a million plus depending on the lease term, income, location etc.

I like them because they can give a modest income (which may cover the interest payment) and the prospect of a capital gain as the lease nears the end. Anyone any thoughts on these?.

Cheers
 
Anyone any thoughts on these?

Would there not be a high risk of default on ground rents making this a potentially high risk/low reward investment?
 
Ground rents are increasingly becoming a thing of the past. In the past 10 or so years there have been campaigns here to get rid of them altogether. I understand that has already happened in some jurisdictions. They are only of value to the owner if debts arising from them can be legally enforced - otherwise they are not worth the paper they are written on. I doubt if they something the average armchair investor should get mixed up with unless you know property law inside out.
 
Clubman,

I'm not an expert on ground rents but from what I do know they appear to be a very secure investment - in general, if the leaseholder defaults on the rent, then the freeholder (who owns the ground rent) can initiate legal proceedings and repossess the property. Since the rental value of the property is normally well in excess of the income from the ground rent, the leaseholder will always pay the ground rent. (The income from the ground rent is normally the rental value of the land without any development thereon or a fixed percantage of the open market value of the developed land). To my mind the main attraction of a ground rent is the capital gain to be made when the lease term expires, but in the interim there could well be a modest secure income from the property.

Tommy,

Have you any experience of ground rents in the UK and commercial ground rents in particular?. I understand that the situation is quite different to here. In the UK local authorities sold off lots of industrial estates, shopping centres, houses etc on long leases and many of them are now selling the freehold title to these properties. In addition lots of apartments / flats are sold on 99 year leases even today. I agree that ground rents in Ireland (in particular residential ground rents) may be a risky investment.
I have consulted a solicitor in the UK on the topic of buying commercial ground rents and he certainly did not give me the impression that such an investment could be complex as regards the rights of the freeholder versus the leaeholder etc. If you believe / know differently I'd appreciate any advice!

Cheers!
 
in general, if the leaseholder defaults on the rent, then the freeholder (who owns the ground rent) can initiate legal proceedings and repossess the property.

A potentially long and costly exercise I would imagine. While you may be legally entitled to the ground rent it may not be pragmatic or economic to pursue a leaseholder who defaults. As far as I recall, even before Irish people were offered the option to buy out their many of them simply didn't bother paying and, as far as I know, many of the landlords affected were unable to do much about it. I am definitely not an expert here but am simply playing devil's advocate in an attempt to tease out some of the risks/flaws in such an investment strategy. It would still seem to me to have a relatively high risk and relatively low reward profile so there may be more balanced alternative investments available...
 
As I mentioned above, there have been campaigns in parts of the country to have ground rents abolished altogether and there has been some political support (cross party if I remember correctly) for this. These campaigns have generated quite a bit of media coverage from time to time. The subject gets mentioned sometimes in the context of the legal messes that were left behind on the disappearance of Lord Lucan, who owned ground rents to substantial parts of Castlebar. I have no particular expertise of the subject but I understand that some judges in this country have in the past been less than kind to ground rent landlords who have tried to use the courts to enforce debts owed by their tenants. As I said earlier, the whole area appears to be something of a legal quagmire, and something in which the average investor might quickly find themselves out of their depth in trying to realise a return from their investment.
 
There was an interesting item on one of the companies selling UK land on the assumption that it will gain in value on receiving planning permission. It was in last Saturday's Guaradian www.guardian.co.uk/guardi...35,00.html

Something to consider before handing your hard earned dosh over. The Guardian said, in response to a reader's query:

ELP is one of a number of firms which buys land at a low price, puts it into small parcels at a much higher price and then sells it on to investors in the expectation, but not guarantee, that planning permission will be granted and the site will soar in value.

The site you mention is in Milford, Surrey. ELP says it is next to a former hospital site which is being redeveloped for housing.

But this "adjacent" argument is no more logical than to suggest London's Hyde Park will be turned into housing because it is next to Park Lane. It could be just the opposite as planners may decide there is enough development for this area.

This week, an ELP salesperson informed Jobs & Money that it had now "gained a licence from the British Franchise Association (BFA), a government body which controls franchises."

The ELP person said: "Entrepreneurs can come to us and sell land on our website. If anything goes wrong, then the entrepreneurs can go back to the BFA, a government body, and get their money back. This is really good news as it underlines our integrity and shows how legitimate our company is."

The franchise association told Capital Letters that it is not a government body, it doesn't pay compensation and ELP is not a member. "ELP exhibited at the BFA-sponsored franchise exhibition in Birmingham this October under the category of Accreditation Pending. We did not complete the checking procedure. It does not currently have a membership application pending.

"The BFA is a voluntary trade association and is not a government organisation. It does not have any responsibility to recompense franchisees if there are problems with the franchisor."
 
BBC's Watchdog show covered these scammers this week - see [broken link removed] for their website report (link only valid for current week).

The basic conclusion from the professionals was that the chances of the land involved actually being rezoned to residential ranked with snowballs in hell. The professionals planners/surveyors spoke in terms of 20-year or 100-year timespans, which is not really the impression given by the promoters.

They even had one smooth-talking salesman in the studio who managed to gloss over the important issues quite well. I think the presenters struggled a bit with understanding the concepts involved (a bit trickier than a broken Hoover).
 
Re: Buying Greenfield Land with a View to Rezoning

Does anyone know how and where I could buy a lease like the ones mentioned above ?
 
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