Judgement Mortgage : Revenue

Martin1949

Registered User
Messages
3
Hi, all. New here so if I am on the wrong thread, please let me know. I did a search re : Judgment Mortgages but nothing relating to my query popped up. So here goes. On the 13/10/2011, Revenue received a judgment against me for non-payment of VAT. The original hearing had been adjourned due my non-appearance due to health reasons and the same health reasons caused me to miss the hearing on the above date. Suffice to say that my mental state was not even conducive to informing the court of this, so Revenue was awarded the judgment. Let me make it clear. I did not and am not disputing the fact that I owe Revenue a sum of VAT but an issue relating to the amount has arisen. However, that is not pertinent to my main concern as follows.
Moving on to the present, I recently received notification from The Property Registration Authority ( dated 20/11/2017 ) stating that a judgment mortgage had been registered against my interest in the family home. So, this is where my concerns arise. I am aware of the various ways in which the debt can be pursued e.g. Sheriff, installment orders, etc. What concerns me is that Revenue or it's agent could pursue the course of a force sale. The house is jointly owned by myself and my wife. So any information on Revenue's or its agent's policy on this would be greatly appreciated.
 

Martin1949

Registered User
Messages
3
Thanks, Jim. Very interesting link. I have considered contacting the solicitors acting for Revenue and making a payment proposal. The sum involved is relatively insignificant in comparison to some of the high profile cases we hear about i.e. €34,000 but as I am 68 y.o., and my income does not allow for a substantial payment, I wonder how it would be received. I suppose it would do no harm to make an offer as judgment has been awarded in favour of Revenue anyway and as I do not dispute the debt and I will find out soon enough what the attitude is.
In relation to bankruptcy, it is my understanding that the official assignee needs prior permission from the courts to sell the family home and, based on the above link, I wonder how likely it is that this permission be granted. I don't have any other assets of value, so why would they bother ?
Thanks again, Jim.
 

The Horseman

Frequent Poster
Messages
341
Thanks, Jim. Very interesting link. I have considered contacting the solicitors acting for Revenue and making a payment proposal. The sum involved is relatively insignificant in comparison to some of the high profile cases we hear about i.e. €34,000 but as I am 68 y.o., and my income does not allow for a substantial payment, I wonder how it would be received. I suppose it would do no harm to make an offer as judgment has been awarded in favour of Revenue anyway and as I do not dispute the debt and I will find out soon enough what the attitude is.
In relation to bankruptcy, it is my understanding that the official assignee needs prior permission from the courts to sell the family home and, based on the above link, I wonder how likely it is that this permission be granted. I don't have any other assets of value, so why would they bother ?
Thanks again, Jim.
While the Courts will not force the sale of the family house in your situation I suspect Revenue would leave the Judgment mortgage on the property and should the property change hands at some point in the future then Revenue would be entitled to the value of the Judgment plus the accrued interest at that point.

Personally I would contact Revenue and try strike a deal.

I am surprised they did not attach a Garnishing order against your income.
 

lukas888

Frequent Poster
Messages
117
What I find unusual is the revenue gained a judgement in 2011 but waited for 6 years to place a judgement mortgage on your home.Why were the revenue solicitors waiting for 6 years.From other similar scenarios the Revenue have moved immediately to locate and place judgement mortgages on debtor properties.
 

The Horseman

Frequent Poster
Messages
341
What is Revenue policy on renewing judgement mortgages?
That I don't know. I would suspect having gone to the trouble and cost of obtaining one in the first place, and the renewal of same is relatively inexpensive so I would have thought it would make economic sense to renew it. Otherwise getting it in the first place with no intention of using it was a waste of money.
 
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The Horseman

Frequent Poster
Messages
341
What I find unusual is the revenue gained a judgement in 2011 but waited for 6 years to place a judgement mortgage on your home.Why were the revenue solicitors waiting for 6 years.From other similar scenarios the Revenue have moved immediately to locate and place judgement mortgages on debtor properties.
You may find the value of the property in 2011 v the balance outstanding on the mortgage would not warrant obtaining a judgment mortgage at that point. However with the increase in property prices the value of the property could have lifted it out of negative equity and as such their is some equity with which to satisfy the judgment mortgage should the property be sold. Also the mortgage would have 6 years of payments on it as well further increasing the value of the positive equity.

Charges on property are dealt with chronologically, the first charge on a property is the banks so if there are no funds over and above the outstanding value on the mortgage when the property is sold then the other Charge holders get nothing.
 

lukas888

Frequent Poster
Messages
117
Hi Horseman,as we are not privy to all the facts it is not known until the OP responds whether the home is mortgaged or not.And if it is his age in 2011 would have been 62 so his mortgage would probably be coming to its end.One way or another this is not normal practice for the revenue to resurrect a judgement from 6 years earlier and only then place a judgement on his home.
 

The Horseman

Frequent Poster
Messages
341
Hi Lukas888 if the property was mortgaged same would be shown on the Folio of the property (normally page 4). Up until recently the value of the loan was shown. This however changed in recent times when the folio does not have the loan amount shown.

I have not had to get a judgment mortgage recently but when I did in the past I looked at the value of the loan on the folio, the age of it, and the possible value the property would have at that time to decide if it was worth registering a judgment mortgage. (By the way I don't work in Revenue).

Perhaps Revenue thought along the same lines.
 

Martin1949

Registered User
Messages
3
Sorry for the delay in responding. To clarify some points raised in latter posts. When Revenue obtained the judgment in Oct., 2011, the house was far from negative equity. The value of the house was approx., €200,000 versus an outstanding mortgage balance of around €25,000. Currently, a conservative valuation is about €240,000 with a mortgage balance of under €9,000 and two years to go. One other point is that, other than the notification of judgment in 2011, there has been no correspondence or action by from or by Revenue until the recent notification from Revenue's agents in October that that they have been instructed to initiate enforcement procedures and then the PRA letter informing me of the registration of the judgment mortgage. It may be significant that a new Collector General was appointed in June this year , a new broom ?
 

sammyj

New Member
Messages
2
hi im new here my father has a 30 year old revenue judgement mortgage against the family home for 90,000 irish punts what i would like to know is what happens after his death when the home goes tru probate will revenue force the sale of the home the money is not there to pay it and also what happens if the home is willed to me will i have to pay it which i cant afford or will revenue just force the sale i hope to hear from somebody who might know something about this thanks sammyj
 

Jim Stafford

Frequent Poster
Messages
504
The Statute of Limitations for a Revenue JM is 30 years. In summary, if Revenue have not enforced the JM within 30 yeas it falls away. You should note that the 30 year period is from the latest of the following dates:
  1. The date of the judgment.
  2. The date your father last made a payment in respect of the judgment.
  3. The date your father last acknowledged the debt in writing.
If your mother is still alive and is the registered Joint Tenancy owner of the home, then the JM would fall away upon your father's death.

You should note that if the original judgment was for IR£90,000, then, with accumulated interest, the JM value is now approx. €275,000

Jim Stafford
 
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sammyj

New Member
Messages
2
thanks very much for your reply jim my mother is thankfuly still alive but the home is only in my fathers name but is it possible revenue can come after me after my fathers death as the house is willed to me a few years ago i saw it somewhere that the revenue judgement will always be there even after 30 years
 

seamus m

Frequent Poster
Messages
102
Amazing to think how small sole traders who more than likely tried their hardest before going bust are left with a 30 year debt legacy while bigger fish generally with bigger debts are cleared with limited liability and more than likely starting again fresh under a different name.Or else have gone wallop under britains less penal system.Is there any likelyhood revenue would do a means tested deal taking only 25 to 30 per cent over a set time?.Would judgement mortgages be taken into PIP arrangements?
 
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