John FitzGerald, says Properties need to be taxed (( Properly)) to achieve fairer wealth distribution,

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Lived and worked in Canada for many years before returning to Ireland. Property prices and property taxes are huge compared to Ireland.
No great wealth distribution there.
The cost of housing both as an owner or renter is a world wide problem.
Dublin London Toronto Sydney Perth Paris etc. Take a look at the price of buying a property and renting a property. Then take a look at the so called average industrial wage in each location. Take a look at property taxes.
I have been back to Toronto the past number of years and a young person in Ireland with an average job has more of a chance of securing a home then a similar youngster in Toronto Sydney etc etc.
How raising property taxes will address wealth distribution and help solve the housing crisis is beyond me.
 
How raising property taxes will address wealth distribution and help solve the housing crisis is beyond me.
They are two different but somewhat related issues. The question is should we tax wealth or just income. Most wealth was not earned. It is the result of property price appreciation and, in the case of pensions, stock value appreciation. It is right that it is taxed at such a low level while work is taxed at such a high level?
 
What has the Irish base got to do with DB pensions?
State pensions are DB for the most part,
In the private sector lots of DB pensions are dependent on employers to top up if the run low in funds, in most cases people already retired finished up with getting the lions share of existing Funds,
Don't Forget When The Government raided Private Pension Funds some was used to Bail out DB pensions In Trouble,, Will The Get away with doing so Again,,
 
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Don't Forget When The Government raided Private Pension Funds some was used to Bail out DB pensions In Trouble,, Will The Get away with doing so Again,,
Yea, and they spent tens of billion of borrowed money reinflating those same DC pensions, internationally there was trillions in borrowed money spent, so it still more than worked out for us DC pension fund holders.
 
How raising property taxes will address wealth distribution and help solve the housing crisis is beyond me.
+1

Imagine a scenario in some benighted faraway land where a lunatic Ceaucescu-type dictator mandates the compulsory smashing of every window in every house every year "to make housing more affordable".

That's where I see we're at with this "tax something to make it more affordable" stuff.
 
+1

Imagine a scenario in some benighted faraway land where a lunatic Ceaucescu-type dictator mandates the compulsory smashing of every window in every house every year "to make housing more affordable".

That's where I see we're at with this "tax something to make it more affordable" stuff.
That's more than a bit sensationalist. Property tax reduces house price volatility (there are lots of studies on that) and broadens the tax base.

In my view it's attractive only if there is a corresponding reduction in income tax rates. I'd increase it ten fold but make it deductible against income tax. If it's just an additional tax so that the State has more money to waste then I'd be against it.
 
That's where I see we're at with this "tax something to make it more affordable" stuff.
No, the analogy doesn't work.

Of course you would pay less for a house with all its windows smashed, because you'd have to pay to put new windows in (and to replace them every year). But a house with all its windows smashed in is a worse house; it's not weatherproof. So you'd be getting a lousier house at a cheaper price.

But taxing a house to cover the cost of the services it recieves — power, water, sewage, roads, public transport, public amenities, etc — is not analogous to smashing all its windows. The services do, in fact, significantly enhance the utility, and therefore the value, and therefore the price, of the house. Smashing the windows doesn't work that way at all.

Right now, if you buy a house, you are also buying the future benefit of all the services that the house receives. Of course, the services, when provided, will partly be paid for by service charges — but only partly. The rest of the services will be paid for out of taxation. But that's taxes levied on all taxpayers, not just on property owners, so that represents a net transfer of wealth to property owners.

That's a materially valuable thing. The housing market being tight, if you're not prepared to pay the present value of the future transfer of wealth that will accrue to you through taxpayer-subsidised services, someone else will be, so you won't get the house.

The result is that to buy a house you have to, in effect, prepay the present value of the services you will receive as a property owner that you won't be paying for through service charges. The cost of houses would fall if we didn't front-load the payment for services in this way, and instead let people pay for the services provided to their property through a property tax.

In countries where they do this, and where property taxes are set locally rather than nationally, we can see this at work — people have to pay measurably less for a house in suburb A, with high property taxes, than for a similar house in adjacent suburb B, with low property taxes.

If we wanted to lower property prices in Ireland, settting property taxes at a level that covered the cost of the services that enhance the value of property would be an obvious step.

Note that it wouldn't make housing more affordable, because you'd still have to pay the full cost of the services over time - what you'd save on the swings of house purchase you'd lose on the roundabout of property taxes. But it would make house purchase more affordable, because it wouldn't front-load the value of future services, and would enable you to pay for them over time, with the benefit of (hopefully) rising disposable income due to career progression, etc.
 
Aren't property taxes generally considered to be regressive though?
I would say so, especially in Ireland.

IMO there are more pensioners on a fixed income in higher value homes then younger working people with higher incomes in lower valued homes.
 
Property ownwership in Ireland is strongly correlated with gross wealth so property taxes, on the whole, fall on people who are wealthier than average. So they're not regressive in that sense.

But they don't correlate quite so well with income. Most people in, say, their 50s who live in house of above-average value also enjoy above-average incomes, so no problem there. But when you look at retired people the story may change. There is a cohort of retired people who own valuable properties but have relatively low incomes.

You could address that, if you wish, by providing property tax concessions for pensioners.
 
Of course you would pay less for a house with all its windows smashed, because you'd have to pay to put new windows in (and to replace them every year). But a house with all its windows smashed in is a worse house; it's not weatherproof. So you'd be getting a lousier house at a cheaper price
How does that differ from how property taxes work?

They don't even reduce property prices, but shove additional costs on to occupants - as would window smashing mandates.

Bear in mind that a window smashing mandate could just as easily fund local services if a special levy was imposed on window suppliers and fitters.
 
I can see how property taxes are a quasi-wealth tax.

But I don't see any link/effects between property taxes and the demand or supply of new houses.
 
How does that differ from how property taxes work?
Because property taxes aren't arbitrary, like window-smashing; they represent the cost of service that substantially enhance the value of the property.

We can see this if we think about the reverse situation. Suppose property taxes are nil, and property owners do not benefit from any publicly-provided services. A property owner who wants his property served by a road that connects it to other places must build the road. If he wants street lighting on that road, he must erect it. If he wants water and sewage, he must install them. If he wants a bus stop and a bus service, or a nearby train station and a rail service, he must provide it himself. If he wants libraries, parks . . . etc, etc. You get the picture.

What do you think his property is worth, without roads, sewage, water supply, street lighting, buses, etc?

The answer, obviously, is "much less than it is worth in the real world, where these things are available"

The difference between those two figures — the enhancement to the value of his property that comes from having services provided to it — is a benefit to the property owner, paid for by those who pay for the services to be provided. If the property owner doesn't pay for it, that's a net transfer of wealth from non-owners to owners. Which means, when you buy your first property, you'rfe paying to puy into that. Which means the property costs a lot more than it would cost if the owner had to pay the full cost of services as they are provided.
 
I would say so, especially in Ireland.

IMO there are more pensioners on a fixed income in higher value homes then younger working people with higher incomes in lower valued homes.
In that scenario just have a mechanism where the tax can be deferred and taken from the owners estate when they die. Interest would be charges of course.
 
We all know that such a reduction would last only until the next time the government experiences a temporary cash shortage.
At that point they should increase or introduce other indirect taxes. Taxing work is a tax on wealth creation and results in less wealth being created. Taxes on wealth retention have no such effect.
 
Taxing work is a tax on wealth creation and results in less wealth being created. Taxes on wealth retention have no such effect.
The Irish way of doing things is to do both.

And a tax targeting inter alia families already saddled with heavy mortgage commitments, while other families get housed for their lifetimes at zero or near-zero cost to them, is by any measure, an obscenity.
 
Because property taxes aren't arbitrary, like window-smashing; they represent the cost of service that substantially enhance the value of the property.
That's not remotely only true in Ireland where a large proportion of the national housing estate is permanently exempted from LPT.

Also, if I significantly improve and thus double the market value of my property, its LPT charge will increase concomitantly, but the improvements will not add a cent to "the cost of (publicly provided) service that substantially enhance the value of the property".
 
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