R
rmelly
Guest
Is it just me or is there a lot to be read into this phrase?
Job not advertised internally
- Thread starter LFC Murphy
- Start date
Is it just me or is there a lot to be read into this phrase?
Complainer
Registered User
- Messages
- 4,949
While it does indeed make sense for an individual to keep their manager informed of attainments and interests (something that I've done myself), it makes no sense for an organisation to rely on this 'word of mouth' process for something as important as recruitment of new staff.
What happens when the supervisor changes role or leaves? What happens with the recruiting manager doesn't manage to check in with EVERY line manager about potential recruits? There is no way that organisations would rely on any process with this degree of informality for a quality management function or a financial reporting function, so why would you rely on it for recruitment?
Yet again, no-one is suggesting automatic right to promotion. No-one is suggesting automatic right to interview. The only suggestion is that employers show enough respect for existing staff to let them know that the position is open, and allow them to apply for the position. No more, no less.
I still haven't heard any clear arguement as to why an employer would NOT want to advertise internally. There is an undercurrent of 'mushroom management' on this thread (i.e. keep them in the dark and throw some smelly stuff at them from time to time).
I think the bottom line is that in this particular case we do not have all the facts and so should not rush to judgement but in general it does make sense to advertise the job internally first.
I do think that the OP’s question about the legality of not advertising internally is quite frankly ridiculous.
I do think that the OP’s question about the legality of not advertising internally is quite frankly ridiculous.
LFC Murphy
Registered User
- Messages
- 103
bigchicken
Registered User
- Messages
- 151
There is nothing to stop the internal candidate from applying for the job if its advertised externally I assume?
Some companies do this to avoid the recruitment process being dragged out. For example, if its advertised internally and there turns out to be no suitable candidate then it has to be advertised externally and the whole process takes longer. If its advertised externally from the start then both internal & external candidates can both apply & be interviewed at the same time.
Some companies do this to avoid the recruitment process being dragged out. For example, if its advertised internally and there turns out to be no suitable candidate then it has to be advertised externally and the whole process takes longer. If its advertised externally from the start then both internal & external candidates can both apply & be interviewed at the same time.
Finally, a common-sense post to this topic.
Seriously people, if nit-picking was an Olympic sport, we'd have a team ready !
Answer to question...No, it's not illegal.
All companies that one would stay with for any reasonable length of time, will have some way of monitoring their employees skills. A database based on their CV, courses taken/completed in their field or other fields/yearly reviews (if you pass an accountancy course and don't tell anyone, then why be surprised if no-one mentions to you that an accountancy position came available?? The onus is on the employee to make themselves appealing to their employer to promote them.)
Eh?A Poster with 1800 posts to his/her name making such a comment
A Poster with 1800 posts to his/her name making such a comment
Purple made a legitimate comment, to only advertise internally would be limiting employers options.
maybe the easiest thing to do would be approach the boss and ask why preference was not given to internal employees
Complainer
Registered User
- Messages
- 4,949
I've never come across any HR department that actually held this level of detail (courses completed, interested areas) in any structured format (to allow searching), other than basic qualifications for regulatory requirements (e.g. qualified doctor, qualified accountant). Are you aware of any HR dept that records data of courses completed externally (i.e. not funded by company) and interest of employees, and searches this data when new positions open up?
I'm amazed and amused about how many nonsensical argument against internal notification of recruitment have been thrown about on this thread, i.e.
- it will delay the process
- no-one is guaranteed an interview
- no-one is guaranteed a promotion
SImply displaying the advert on an internal notice board does not delay the process, as internal candidates will be processed in the same cycle as external candidates.
The problem with advertising externally only is that there is a good chance that internal candidates won't see it. Now, are there any good reasons for NOT advertising internally?
There's one really obvious one - the sure knowledge that there are no internal employees suited to the job.
Yes, and I worked for them for 7 years.
It's in the companies interests to do so as advertising every job externally takes time and will inevitably result in a percentage of useless chancers taking up the HR/recruitment dept time. Whilst using a recruitment company costs a lot of money.
In my previous employment, they would also advertise everything internally for 1 week before it went to the external process.
All their bases were covered, but still positions went to individuals without being advertised at all, or only 'for show', as the individuals concerned were the 'pets'.
Bottom line, if you want promotion, keep your eye on the jobsites !
You snooze, you lose.
Complainer
Registered User
- Messages
- 4,949
Forgive my cynicism, but I just don't believe that any HR department actively maintains this level of detail (courses completed, interested areas) in any structured format (to allow searching), other than basic qualifications for regulatory requirements (e.g. qualified doctor, qualified accountant) and searches the data at recruitment time. I would really need to see some kind of independent verification (e.g. press article, case study from software provider etc) to believe this.
The cost/benefit ratio is too low. Maintaining this kind of data for an organisation of a couple of hundred employees is probably going to take about one man-day a week just on the admin side. Soft data like this inevitably gets out of date very quickly, and concerted ongoing efforts will be required to keep the data current.
And what's the benefit? Given that they are already advertising all positions internally, why would they bother with this? Let's say they find a production line operator who has done some bookkeeping courses, and there is an admin position coming up on the Finance dept, what action is taken? Do they just tip him off?
Sorry, but I pointed out the flaw in this one earlier in the thread, i.e. "However, there may well be suitable candidates who are brothers/cousins/flatmates of internal staff - Why would you want to rule out 'word of mouth' as a recruitment channel?" Given that progressive organisations are incentivising this kind of referral with bonus payments, why would an employer want to avoid this kind of referral, simply to avoid the effort of sticking a bit of paper on a noticeboard?
I don't have any independently published information of the HR practises of a private company, and for me to give the name of the company would open me up to litigation. Besides, I don't really care whether you believe it or not. It's not a matter of belief, it's a matter of fact.
I'm very glad that you are not the HR manager in any company I've ever worked for if you would take 20% of a resources time to maintain something like that. 6-monthly reviews are the time when every employee is rerquired to review and ensure their data is correct. They can update it themselves on an ad-hoc basis if necessary.
Roles in certain teams require certain skills that may not be utilised in an employees existing position but they may not be actively looking for a change. If management can move them to a team where their skills are better put to use, then it's a more efficient use of your resources. Also, if you have no real wish to change teams for no reason, but managment put it to you that this will make you a more important member of the team, then your visibility goes up, as does your chance for a payrise and/or a promotion when they come around.
greenfield
Registered User
- Messages
- 191
The OP asked about the legality of a company not advertising vacancies. As far as I know, there can potentially be an issue under employment equality for an employer who does not advertise internally for example if the job could potentially be a promotion for a group of workers who are mainly female or married or older and a male or single person or a younger person was appointed to the job. This is a complex area and it is not just as simple as "I'm older the new person is younger, it must be discrimination", but there can potentially be a legal issue for the employer.
Complainer
Registered User
- Messages
- 4,949
I can see some value in this data, particularly for assignment to team-based roles, rather than internal promotions.
I'm genuinely not being argumentative, but I'd really need to see this myself. I've seen so many attempts at this kind of data collection, all of which collapse into failure after 6 months. I'd need to see this myself to get my head around what they are up to.