Ivan Yates: "We bailed out the banks..."

Discussion in 'The great financial debates' started by Brendan Burgess, 28 Jun 2018.

  1. dub_nerd

    dub_nerd Frequent Poster

    We don't put bankrupts in the pillory or the poorhouse these days. It's called civilisation.
  2. RedOnion

    RedOnion Frequent Poster

    I completely agree, we shouldn't. And I'm delighted the bankruptcy laws changed here.

    However, my view of bankruptcy is that it should be like wiping the slate clean and starting over. No debts, and no material assets (other than a modest family home).

    I'd take a lot more risks financially if I knew I'd get all the upside to myself, but if it failed I could walk away from my debts and keep a substantial country mansion, and a guaranteed pension if things went south.

    And I'd write personal guarantees every day of the week if I knew they couldn't be fully enforced because my wife didn't get legal advice before signing.

    I've oversimplified this, but I find it interesting the number of cases where spouses, who were involved in the running of multi million euro businesses for years, suddenly claim they didn't know what they were doing when they signed personal guarantees. Or people with large ancestral homes and lands that can't be touched where their spouse has an interest because they spent a few quid of their own on its upkeep.
    Delboy, Purple and odyssey06 like this.
  3. IdesofMarch

    IdesofMarch Frequent Poster

    Red Onion,

    Its terrible that old law stuff, if only it wasn't there!
  4. Sarenco

    Sarenco Frequent Poster

    The body of the article to which that headline relates makes it absolutely clear that Anglo never in fact wrote residential mortgages.

    They may well have considered offering stapled finance when trying to offload repo’d properties on their books but it never actually happened.

    Anglo never issued any RMBS securities, as suggested, for the simple reason that they never originated any resi mortgages.

    I know you’re not particularly interested in getting your facts straight but your obvious lies really do look foolish at this stage.
    Purple likes this.
  5. IdesofMarch

    IdesofMarch Frequent Poster

    Ehh wrong again Sarenco, the hint is in the title "Anglo Irish now doing residential mortgages to get value"

    The body of the article states that from 2011 Anglo did write residential loans, prior to this, they provided residential mortgages in the guise of term loans. These were grant to most staff members and friends, cousin, sons and daughters etc of important customers. RMBS has nothing to do with it. A bank can issue residential mortgages without issuing residential mortgage backed securities (RMBS).

    Here is the opening para of the article in question:

    "Anglo Irish Bank, which is gradually winding down its loan book, is now providing residential mortgages to help encourage buyers to purchase apartments and houses at some of the projects it funded in the boom".

  6. joe sod

    joe sod Frequent Poster

    Why, what an ignorant thing to do, he said hello, why be such a fool. Maybe it's the typical Irish begrudgery or "reverse snobbery" which is so common in Ireland.
    Sarenco likes this.
  7. Sarenco

    Sarenco Frequent Poster


    Here’s a link to the article, which states quite explicitly that Anglo was never in the mortgage market.

    By 2011, when the article was written, Anglo was being wound down. I’m sure it was trying to offload properties by offering stapled finance (as I’ve already stated). But Anglo never originating any resi mortgages.

    In any event, Seanie Fitz was obviously well gone by 2011 so your original suggestion that he colluded with anybody on the golf course to fix mortgage rates makes zero sense.

    We already know you struggle to understand law and economics. Apparently, we can also add history to the list of topics that you cannot grasp.
  8. fistophobia

    fistophobia Frequent Poster

    Joe Sod,

    I dont have time for people of low moral character.
  9. IdesofMarch

    IdesofMarch Frequent Poster

    Last edited: 1 Jul 2018

    if you bothered to do any in depth analysis of Anglo Irish Bank and look through the list of Anglo Irish Bank's subsidiaries you will find several that offered residential loans. Sure Allied Dunbar alone specialised in endowment mortgages. Your personal attack on me shows a level of pomposity that beggars belief. Please grow up or crawl back under a stone.

    AALP England Limited
    AALP Galashiels Limited
    AALP Guernsey Limited
    AALP Sunbury Limited
    AIT (Nominees) Limited
    Alexan Limited
    Alpha Ceres GP LLC
    Alpha Ceres REIT, Inc.
    Beta Ceres GP, Inc.
    Delta Ceres (STAP), Inc.

    Anglo Irish Bank Limited
    Anglo Irish Assurance Company Limited
    Anglo Irish Corporate Bank Limited
    Anglo Irish International Finance
    Anglo Irish Asset Management Limited
    Buyway Group Limited
    Pagnol Limited Anglo Irish Nominees Limited
    Anglo Irish Bank (Nominees) Limited
    Geranth Limited Pegasus Nominees Limited
    Anglo Irish Bank ESOP Limited
    Anglo Irish Capital Partners Limited
    Anglo Irish Administration Limited
    Anglo Irish Financial Services Limited
    CF Limited
    Modify 5 Limited
    Anglo Irish International Financial Services Limited
    Ansbacher Bankers Limited
    IBOC Limited
    Irish Buyway Limited
    Knightsdale Limited
    Sparta Financial Services
    Fitzwilliam Leasing Limited
    Anglo Irish Mortgage Bank
    Anglo Irish Funding 1 Limited
    Anglo Irish Funding 2 Limited
    Anglo Irish Funding 3 Limited
    Anglo Irish Funding 4 Limited
    Anglo Irish Funding 5 Limited
    Anglo Irish Funding 6 Limited
    Gertonabbey Limited
    Aragone Limited
    Tincorra Investments Limited
    Filipa Limited
    Castle Farm Telford Nominees Limited
    Colmore Square No. 1 Limited
    Colmore Square No. 2 Limited
    D MacDonald Estates (Limerick) Limited
    Georges Square Property No. 1 Limited
    Georges Square Property No. 2 Limited
    Manchan Limited
    Tuscanan Limited
    Wentbridge Properties Limited
    Exhort Limited
    Moschus Limited
    Phaenom Limited
    Anglo Irish Bank Corporation Limited
    Anglo Irish Capital Funding Limited
    AIT (Nominees) Limited
    Anglo Irish Holdings IOM Limited
    Steenwal B.V.
    Anglo Irish Bank Corporation (International) PLC
    Anglo Irish Nominees (IOM) Limited
    Anglo Irish Trust (IOM) Limited
    Alexan Limited
    Beaugrand Sarl
    Belalan Bischoffshein Freehold SPRL
    Belalan Bischoffshein Leashold SPRL
    Belalan Holdings SPRL
    Belalan Louise Freehold SPRL
    Belalan Louise Leashold SPRL
    Belalan Meir Freehold SPRL
    Belalan Meir Leashold SPRL
    Berala Sarl
    Castle Farm Campus (Telford) Limited
    Erste DIG Vermogensverwaltungs GmbH
    Chancery Place Limited Sarl
    Fellstar Limited
    Fenlay Limited
    Finsbury Dials Sarl
    Harpen Ostenhellweg GmbH
    Heywood Park Limited
    Kernesk Limited
    Ladyland Limited
    Moreton Limited
    Newbury (GP) Limited
    Petersen Limited
    Portwall One Limited
    QBC Czech SRO
    QDH Czech SRO
    Racol Sarl
    Sajola Sarl
    Salado Enterprises Limited
    Sheps (PHFL) Limited
    Starcrest Limited
    Talca Enterprises Limited
    Tarnold Holdings Sarl
    West Port Sarl
    Westow Limited
    Woolgate SA
    Zeus Investments 1 SPRL
    Zeus Investments 2 SPRL
    555 NMA Investors LLC
    Alpha Ceres GP LLC
    Alpha Ceres REIT, Inc.
    Beta Ceres GP, Inc.
    Delta Ceres (STAP), Inc.
    Gamma Ceres GP, Inc.
    Zeta Ceres Capital, Inc.
    Zeta Ceres GP, Inc.
    Zeta Ceres New York LLC
    Zeta Ceres REIT, Inc.
    Zeta Ceres, Inc.
    Anglo Irish Boston Corporation
    Anglo Irish New York Corporation
    Anglo Irish Chicago Corporation
    10 South State Street Holdings LLC
    10 South State Street Property LLC
    Mainland Investments GP Inc
    Mainland Ventures Corp
    Project B Investor Limited Partnership
    Project B Investor II Limited Partnership
    MBB Investment Partners Limited Partnership
    CWB Holdings Limited Partnership
    CWB Hotel Limited Partnership
    CWB Retail Limited Partnership
    CWB Apartments Limited Partnership
    Beta Ceres Limited Partnership
    Gamma Ceres Limited Partnership
    Zeta Ceres Limited Partnership
    SEAPORT CPA Limited Partnership
    10 South State Street Property Investor, Limited Partnership
    Mainland Investments 625 NMA, Limited Partnership
    TA Newbury Street Fund Investor, Limited Partnership
    10 South State Street Property GP, LLC
    Anglo Irish Equity Limited
    Anglo Irish Private Capital Limited
    Anglo Irish Leasing Limited
    Berfors Nominees Limited
    Finance 2000 plc
    Clickinput Limited
    CDB (UK) Limited
    Anglo Irish Property Lending Limited
    Anglo Irish Property Investors Limited
    Anglo Irish Finance Limited
    Anglo Irish Credit plc
    Anglo Irish Commercial Properties (No.1) Limited
    Anglo Irish Commercial Properties Limited
    Anglo Irish Carry Partner Limited
    Anglo Irish Capital GP Limited
    Anglo Irish Asset Limited
    Anglo Irish Asset Finance plc
    Amblepath Properties Limited
    Argyle Investment Finance Limited
    Anglo Irish Treasury Financing Limited
    Anglo Irish GP Holdings Limited
    Anglo Irish Property Investors GP Limited
    Sutherland Finance And Leasing
    Anglo Irish Covered Bonds Limited Liability Partnership
    AALP Guernsey Limited
    AALP Galashiels Limited
    AALP England Limited
    AALP Sunbury Limited
    IFT Nominees Limited
    CDB Investments Limited
    Industrial Funding Trust Limited
    Anglo Irish German Retail Limited
    Soundbow Limited Liability Partnership
    Anglo Irish Covered Bonds Finance Limited
    Moorevale Investments Limited
    Moorevale Investments (Brigade House) Limited
    Carisbrooke Anglo Ventures Limited
    Carisbrooke Property Investments Limited
    Carisbrooke Properties Limited
    Carisbrooke Properties (Barry) Limited
    Carisbrooke Central Investments Limited
    Carisbrooke Properties (Basingstoke) Limited
    Carisbrooke Central Limited
    GPF Investments Limited
    Carisbrooke Lime Street Limited
    Countryroad Investments Limited
    Taurus Euro Retail Holding Sarl
    Taurus Euro Retail Finance Sarl
    Taurus Euro Retail Investment Sarl

    By the way Sarenco, can you tell me what a tracker mortgage is?
    Last edited: 1 Jul 2018
  10. Sarenco

    Sarenco Frequent Poster

    Last edited: 2 Jul 2018

    When you’re in a hole, you should really stop digging.

    No subsidiary of Anglo was ever in the mortgage business.

    Anglo did acquire a sterling loan book from Allied Dunbar at one stage but no Anglo group company ever originated any meaningful home loan book. They may have advanced a very occasional loan to a commercial client that was secured on a residential property but they were never in the residential mortgage business.

    Acoordingly, the idea that Seanie Fitz colluded with anybody regarding variable mortgage rates is delusional.
    Last edited: 2 Jul 2018
  11. Purple

    Purple Frequent Poster

    IofM is much smarter than the rest of us, I know because he keeps telling me, so maybe that's why he doesn't understand the point that you are making. I'm thick so I understand... understand?

    It must be a burden to be so much smarter than everyone else but we all have out crosses to bear.
    RedOnion likes this.
  12. Sunny

    Sunny Frequent Poster


    Anglo Irish Bank never operated in the residential mortgage market. Can you show me one advert where Anglo offered a residential mortgage or published their mortgage rates?? Anglo offered very specific large mortgages and buy to let mortgages to their commercial clients but no-one was ever able to rock up to Anglo Irish Bank and ask for a home loan.

    Which ones of those subsidiaries provided Irish Residential mortgages that Sean Fitzpatrick decided that residential variable rate home loan rates were really a big ticket item for the bank. Anglo did many things but collusion on rates was not one of them. It was the opposite in fact. Anglo undercut the other Irish banks on the vast majority of deals to the extent that the other banks couldn't work out how Anglo was doing it. It was a pure volume game with Anglo. They took losses on certain deals to win profitable repeat business. It was all about the 'relationship' with the developer with them. They had no interest in colluding with Irish banks when it came to lending. The culture in Anglo was to crush the other banks, not work with them. Of course that led to other banks chasing and chasing deals and in the end it became a race to the bottom.[/QUOTE]
    Purple, rob oyle and Sarenco like this.
  13. Webster

    Webster Registered User

    My friend worked for IBRC and he showed me an Anglo Irish Bank mortgage that he has on his house when he worked for Anglo. I will ask him will he let me post it to the forum.
  14. LDFerguson

    LDFerguson Frequent Poster

    I don't think this really changes any of the arguments. Anglo Irish Bank did not sell residential mortgages to the general public and so they were not influential in the pricing of residential mortgages as a competitor bank. They may well have lent money to their own staff.
  15. Webster

    Webster Registered User

    Ok, sorry about that. I think Ansbacher Bankers Ltd had a residential loan portfolio also, if that makes a difference.
  16. Duke of Marmalade

    Duke of Marmalade Frequent Poster

    I think the point the Boss is making is that it is populist to talk about bailing out the banks but Ivan would soon be dropped from his show if he complained about bailing out old ladies who sought a wee bit extra by depositing with Anglo.

    But I want to consider the macro picture. The boom and bust led to a massive transfer of wealth within Irish society. The 60bn bail out ensured that the Irish taxpayer was on the debit side of this transfer. But it wasn’t the depositors who were on the credit side. They simply got their money back or maybe a trickle of extra interest. Likewise the bond holders. The credit side were those lucky people who got ludicrous prices for their land and property and to a lesser extent the taxpayer who benefitted from unsustainable property taxes.
    RETIRED2017 likes this.