Is it ethical for Women to resign after Maternity Leave?

M

MOB

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The solicitors profession is currently debating whether it should be obligatory (or at least recommended practice) to pay full salary while on maternity leave.

I have my own (fairly fixed, I must admit) views, but would be interested to hear what others think.

This interesting debate is a spin off from a question by MOB about "top up maternity payments" in Careers and Emploment..ajapale
 
Re: Paid Maternity Leave

If the recipient can be legally bound to come back to work for at least one year from the end of the maternity leave or return the top up payment made by their employer then I think it should be done (an exemption could be applied for in the case of businesses who cannot afford to pay it or in this case the law society could have a fund etc.).
My company pay top up maternity leave and in 2 out of the last 3 cases the recipient had handed in their notice two weeks before they were due back.
I regard this as theft by the employee.
 
Re: Paid Maternity Leave

I regard this as theft by the employee.

It's not. "Top-up" maternity pay is a between the employer and the employee and is not a statutory right.
Payment during maternity leave is normally provided through Maternity Benefit, which is a Department of Social and Family Affairs payment. Some employment contracts allow for additional payment rights during the leave period, for example, that the employee will receive full pay, less the amount of Maternity Benefit payable.
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The employee is at liberty to negotiate terms under which they do not pay this. However if they agree to an employment contract which guarantees to pay it then they are obliged to do so even if the employee decides to time a resignation to tie in with the end of the maternity leave.
 
Re: Paid Maternity Leave

You are right Clubman but it is a nasty and mean thing to do and IMHO it is no better than theft. The employer is paying a top up payment in order to support an employee while they are away from work, not while they have no intension of coming back. In a small business it can cause a big financial strain to pay a replacement and top up a salary. Integrity has to cut both ways.
 
Re: Paid Maternity Leave

Employers that don't like it are free to offer contracts of employment which don't include top-up maternity pay and recruit employees who are happy to accept such contractual terms & conditions. I don't consider nasty, mean or tantamount to theft for an employee to avail of the mutually agreed terms and conditions of the contract of employment.
 
Re: Paid Maternity Leave

If somebody really doesn't want to come back to work, would you really want to have them sitting at their desk for 6 or 12 months just to meet some contractual requirement?
 
Re: Paid Maternity Leave

so you think it's OK to accept payment for time off when you have no intention of coming back?
would you really want to have them sitting at their desk for 6 or 12 months just to meet some contractual requirement
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What's that got to do with it? I am saying that the individual who accepts three months payment from their employer after they have effectively left the company (since they have no intension of going back to work for them) is being dishonest at the very least.
Many people complain about social welfare fraud where people accept dole payments when they have no intension of working. This is the same thing. If you are leaving your job you shouldn't get three months pay for nothing after you are gone.
In my company there is nothing about extended sick pay when someone is out for a few weeks but we pay people their wage when we know that they need it. We used to give interest free loans to employees who got into financial trouble 'till the revenue people told us to stop. We pay for training courses, match 1 for 1 all payments into the social club by employees, offer a subsidised canteen etc etc and we are not unusual. I would hate to think any employee would be so unethical that they would behave like that.
 
Re: Paid Maternity Leave

Hi Purp - I didn't make any comment on the rights or wrongs of the issue. Don't assume that you always know what I'm thinking. I don't think your comparison to SW fraud holds water. In that case, there are specific legal regulations stating that the recipient must be 'looking for work'. In the case of maternity benefit, the person who accepts the benefit & does not return to work is not breaking any law.

But back to my earlier post - I was simply pointing out that any attempt to prevent this scenario by legal/contractual means (i.e. committing the employee to remain as such for a period of time) may be self-defeating.
 
Re: Paid Maternity Leave

Right, fair enough rainyday. We are approaching this from different sides. I think everyone has a duty to do what is morally right and being within the letter of the law does not negate this responsibility. I think for an employer to use the law to take advantage of an employee is wrong and I think that cuts both ways. I accept that it is within the law to behave in that way but that doesn't make it right. We now live in a society that places no value on right and wrong and looks only at what is legal and illegal and I think we are poorer for it.
 
Re: Paid Maternity Leave

I think for an employer to use the law to take advantage of an employee is wrong and I think that cuts both ways.

If you boil it down to that then of course emlpoyers always take advantage of employees and vice versa. That's the nature of a contractual agreement into which both parties willingly enter. I don't see how this situation (claiming maternity pay with no intention of returning to work) is any different since it is simply a contractual arrangement between some employers and their employees. Employers who don't like the idea of that happening can always remove the discretionary payment of wages (in part or full) during maternity leave from contracts of employment on offer to prospective employees. Where employers have entered into a contractual agreement to pay this then they can't really complain if the employee simply takes advantage of this aspect of the contractual agreement.
 
Re: Paid Maternity Leave

If you boil it down to that then of course employers always take advantage of employees and vice versa
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I strongly disagree with you there Clubman, there are many people working here who give their time over weekends and evenings working on projects and do not look for payment because they know that if they need help or latitude at a later date they will get it. Then again maybe that's why we have been in business for 37 years without any strikes or even the threat of a strike and have a workforce that has rejected all attempts at unionisation.
I know it sounds a bit idealistic but it does come down to mutual respect and trust and without that a lot of a companies energy, both management and workers, is used in a nonproductive way. Just look at An Post and Irish Ferries for examples.
 
Re: Paid Maternity Leave

By "take advantage" I did not mean to imply anything nefarious. I meant that the contractual arrangement between employer and employee is generally symbiotic with both parties gaining some advantage from the relationship (e.g. employer benefits from the creation of wealth through the surplus value of the employee's labour while the employee benefits from a salary etc.). Paid maternity is simply one benefit of some employments and employers are at liberty to offer it - or not - as they see fit. They are not under any statutory obligation to offer it. If it is offered as a benefit of employment then it's hardly fair to criticise an employee for availing of it regardless of the circumstances. Anyway, I think I've laboured this point quite enough at this stage...
 
Re: Paid Maternity Leave

Hi Purp - Have you considered using the carrot instead of the stick? While it sound like you are a fairly enlightened employer, could you do a bit more to entice the mothers to stay at work? For example, flexible working hours, work from home for knowledge workers, maybe even an in-house creche (one of the very few benefits you can offer your employees without them being BIKed).
 
Re: Paid Maternity Leave

Hi Rainy, I am not talking from personal experience, there are 3 women and 75 men here so it's not something that comes up much here. I have no problem with women who intend to go back to work when they go on maternity leave but find that they can't when the baby is in hand, so to speak.
I do have a problem with women who have made a decision early in their pregnancy that they will give up work when the baby is born but take maternity leave anyway. I have a problem because to them it's not leave, it's three months pay under false pretenses.
As for using the carrot instead of the stick, there is no stick nowadays! Using the stick is called bullying and getting rid of someone by using the stick is called constructive dismissal.
And that's the way it should be, but it has to cut both ways.
 
Re: Paid Maternity Leave

My company pay top up maternity leave and in 2 out of the last 3 cases the recipient had handed in their notice two weeks before they were due back.
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I am not talking from personal experience, there are 3 women and 75 men here so it's not something that comes up much here.
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Now I'm confused....
 
Re: Paid Maternity Leave

Sorry rainy, both cases where people left date back nearly ten years, the recent one came back to work. I wasn't involved in that area of the business at that time.
 
Re: Paid Maternity Leave

I do have a problem with women who have made a decision early in their pregnancy that they will give up work when the baby is born but take maternity leave anyway. I have a problem because to them it's not leave, it's three months pay under false pretenses.

Not it's not. They are simply availing of a mutually agreed/negotiated contractual benefit of employment.

I am not talking from personal experience, there are 3 women and 75 men here so it's not something that comes up much here.

...

both cases where people left date back nearly ten years, the recent one came back to work. I wasn't involved in that area of the business at that time.

So, basically, this issue does not represent any major/immediate problem for your business? In which case it seems odd that this issue seems to agitate you so much.
 
Re: Paid Maternity Leave

So, basically, this issue does not represent any major/immediate problem for your business? In which case it seems odd that this issue seems to agitate you so much
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I am agitated (mildly) about this because I think that everyone should act in an honourable and ethical way, regardless of what the letter of the law says and I regard this behaviour as nether ethical or honourable.
It's not that big a deal and my opinions on this seem to agitate you ClubMan, I intent no offense and apologies if any is caused.
Not it's not. They are simply availing of a mutually agreed/negotiated contractual benefit of employment.
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so anything that is legal is OK? If so than you must have no problem with tax avoidance etc because it's legal.
 
Re: Paid Maternity Leave

It's not that big a deal and my opinions on this seem to agitate you ClubMan, I intent no offense and apologies if any is caused.

I'm not agitated and no apology required. I'm simply rebutting your mistaken assertions that somebody claiming a mutually agreed contractual benefit of employment such as maternity pay, albeit while not intending to return to work, is variously a thief, nasty, mean, dishonourable, unethical, operating under false pretences etc. Don't forget that a woman on maternity leave (whether the employer is paying her in part or full) is still an employee of the company so all of the normal rules apply, including the ability of either party to give normal notice of termination (with the exception of the employer giving notice on grounds related to the pregnancy or at specific times during the pregnancy).

so anything that is legal is OK?

Yes - I suppose so. After all the law is effectively a codification of the generally accepted rules of society and reflects the ethics and values of that society.

If so than you must have no problem with tax avoidance etc because it's legal.

Yes - I have no problem with tax avoidance once it is done within the limits of the relevant tax laws and Revenue anti-avoidance rules. Obviously I would not condone tax evasion.
 
Re: Paid Maternity Leave

Sorry rainy, both cases where people left date back nearly ten years, the recent one came back to work. I wasn't involved in that area of the business at that time.
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That's a great memory you have there - remembering the fine detail of two cases from ten years ago in an area in which you weren't involved. Two cases in ten years (or in 780 working years) doesn't seem like a huge problem to me.
 
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