Irish language signs in the north

I agree with him. Violent Nationalism weaponised the Irish Language, claiming it as a Catholic and Republican identifier, and now they act all shocked and surprised when those who they were murdering not so long ago don't want that badge displayed on their street signs.

Irish street signs, painting curb stones in the colours of the Union Flag, flying Union Flags and Tricolours all over the place; they are all tribal signs, like a dog peeing on a lamp post to mark out its territory. One tribe doesn't like it when the other tribe starts to pee on the lamp posts in their area. We can dress this up as culture or politics or whatever but it's just tribalism in it's basest form.

The Irish language is a part of Irish culture but it is not part of all Irish culture and speaking it does not make anyone more Irish than those who don't speak it. I'm not a fan of ethno-nationalism. It generally doesn't lead to nice outcomes.
 
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If bilingual street signs are placed in areas of any NI or RoI village, town, city officially by the local council I have no objection. Is that the situation above?
 
Leper said:
If bilingual street signs are placed in areas of any NI or RoI village, town, city officially by the local council I have no objection. Is that the situation above?
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Local councils in Northern Ireland have a long history of sectarianism, previously at the expense of Nationalists.
 
I don’t care if my street’s sign is in twenty or one language(s). All I want to do is live peacefully and comfortably. So what if a sign appears in Irish and English in some leafy Belfast housing estate? It’s no big deal; let’s not make it one.
 
'The Irish language belongs to us all' is an invitation not a command.

It is aimed at all who may not have a background with Irish or whose background is generations in the past.

It is addressed to recent immigrants in particular.

The idea of it being weaponised against Protestants or Unionists would be incomprehensible to Douglas Hyde (Church of Ireland member and founder of Conradh na Gaeilge) or indeed to Edward Carson. Whether this weaponisation of the language is the fault of SF or Unionist politicians it is deplorable.
 
Like it or not, poking around as to why place names in Northern Ireland, NI, are what are they leads you straight to Irish - Tyrone, Tír Eoghain, John's Country or John's Land, as Béarla. Unless people want to have a go at re-naming everywhere in NI then I'm afraid they're stuck with their heritage. Certain tribes or communities in NI may want to deny it, but that does them no good, and shows up the deniers for narrow minded bigots. Bealfast, Béal Feirisde, Mouth of the Fergus, Derry, Doire, Wood/Oak wood, and so on. What not have the place names in Irish and English for residents who want that and even show the English transliteration of the original Irish name as well. It's all the go in that there Wales and that there New Ireland place!
 
I miss King's County and Queen's County. Kingstown, Queenstown and Maryborough too.

And I relish shopping in George's Street, Henry Street, South Anne Street (is there a North Anne Street?), and - best of all - buying fresh crubeens in the English Market, right in the middle of the Rebel County!

Míle buíochas doibh.
 
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Páirc an tSeandúin ~ Sean Dún (Old fort)


An Irish Language Act was part of GFA and St Andrews agreement. Unionist parties signed up to it.
It was Unionists that resisted its implementation from the get-go and therefore the weaponisation of it.

In Scotland there is an official language Act, in Wales and Ireland too. The Irish Language was campaigned and petitioned for through peaceful means supported by SF, SDLP, Greens, Alliance, PBP, and supported by all hues of Irish of government parties and the British Labour Party.

Irish language is cultural and long pre-dates the Republican and Unionist tribes.

Is é Turas an eagraíocht teanga Gaeilge agus Scots-Gailic a bhunadh i 2012 i Oirthear Béal Féirste. D’fhreastail Linda Ervine, deirfiúr chéile de David Irvine, ball den UVF i 2012 don chéad oíche agus leanaigh sí ó shin.
Anois tá timpeall 500 baill de Turas agus ag méadú an t-am go léir.
Is na loganimeacha de cheantair Éirinn an suimiúil ó thaobh teagmháil a dhéanamh den cultúr.

The tribal division/weaponisation lie with the ignorants too lazy to cast a word of acknowledgement for the efforts being made to build bridges for future generations. The Jim Allisters, Gregory Campbells.
 
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Marsupial said:
right in the middle of the Rebel County!
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You do know that that has nothing to do with nationalism or fighting British /English rule?
It’s to do with the locals supporting the claim of Perkin Warbeck, a pretender to the English Crown, after the War of the Roses. A 15th Century insult from King Henry the seventh has been spuriously misinterpreted and misunderstood by the locals as some sort of badge of honour relating to Nationalism and Republicanism when nothing could be further from the truth… or maybe things mean what people think they mean and to the Unionists in those areas the imposition of Irish Language signs is the same kind of triumphalism that the Unionists engaged in for decades.

I often think of the words of the late great Seamus Mallon; he quotes Yeats “peace comes dropping slow” then added, “we have to be careful not to do to them what they did to us.”
 
Purple said:
You do know that that has nothing to do with nationalism or fighting British /English rule?
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I have always enjoyed the Dublin put down: "Call yerselves Rebels? Ye had one decent rebel (Michael Collins) and ye shot him in the back!"
 
The headline is not the issue and is barely mentioned in the piece, so we should not be distracted by what a sub-editor chose to catch attention. The article is a re-hash of one Emerson originally wrote in July: Alliance needs to read writing on wall over Belfast bilingual sign policy

The background to all of this is that the rules around street signs were changed recently by Belfast City Council in line with recommendations from an independent UN report. Instead of requiring 1/3 of residents to propose a sign and 2/3 majority to approve it, now a single resident (or councillor) can propose it, and just 15% of residents need to approve it. The argument is that a minority language should not require majority approval.

Previously if a resident did not respond to the survey then their vote was automatically counted as a "no" - this has (quite rightly) been changed and abstention is not counted either way. A committee still reviews the proposal and local context is considered. There was a de facto veto in place where if >50% of residents surveyed oppose it then it was "deferred", but this has faded away as nationalist power on council has increased. Emerson is saying that all 3 groups (nationalists, Alliance, unionists) are at fault in different ways. Essentially, a pox on all your houses, which is not novel or helpful.

Irish and Ulster Scots are both recognised in the UK as minority languages under the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages, and this was codified in UK law a few years ago. Even if you are a staunch unionist, Northern Ireland has native citizens who are nationalist and Irish and who value the language. Wales and Scotland have the equivalent but you don't see Welsh or Scottish unionists defacing signs in Welsh or Scottish gaelic.

People are very weird about languages though. Patients here in the UK regularly complain to me about information leaflets in the hospital being available in multiple languages. It amazes me that someone will start off a conversation with a rant about foreigners when they are about to be treated by a foreigner. And then proceed to waste several minutes trying to convince me that the NHS displaying a poster in Urdu is somehow the downfall of Britain.
 
arbitron said:
Wales and Scotland have the equivalent but you don't see Welsh or Scottish unionists defacing signs in Welsh or Scottish gaelic.
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No. Although you see the other side defacing signs in English. (Pretty obvious really, if you think about it.)
 
‘People here are horrified’: Irish-language signs vandalised in affluent east Belfast

More reporting on this.

It turns out that the signs on Shandon Park were not defaced by residents on the street at all but by folks from another area.

“...people living here are horrified by what happened on Saturday night. It was such a violent act,” says one resident.
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Loyalists from the nearby Braniel estate are being blamed for the vandalism which the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) described as “hate-motivated criminal damage”.
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Residents approached by The Irish Times on Monday are too nervous to disclose their names. All condemn the vandalism.
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The same people who spray painted and then cut down the sign had previously put up Union Flags on the road. Again, from outside the area, so not requested by the residents.

Threats by loyalist paramilitaries to launch an arson campaign to destroy Irish signage on council premises were also reported a fortnight ago.
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A group representing loyalist paramilitaries protested against the school being built but it opened its doors last month.
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East Belfast GAA was founded during the Covid pandemic and despite being subjected to pipe bomb threats and intimidation, its members continue to swell.
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This is pathetic behaviour. And the "weaponisation" argument is complete BS.

One Shandon Park resident from a unionist background previously lived in Scotland and Wales “where the indigenous language is celebrated”.

“We should be able to do the same thing here,” he says.

“I don’t speak Irish but it’s definitely on my to-do list. I don’t feel threatened by it.”
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Exactly. So many nationalist and unionists live, work, and socialise happily together. It is sad to see people waste time and energy creating divisions when the rest of the community is trying to improve things.
 
arbitron said:
Exactly. So many nationalist and unionists live, work, and socialise happily together. It is sad to see people waste time and energy creating divisions when the rest of the community is trying to improve things.
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I agree. The problem is that the threads of history are all over this issue and the bad actors and bad decisions by both sides make what should be a nothing issue into this.
arbitron said:
And the "weaponisation" argument is complete BS.
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Is it? How so?
 
Purple said:
Is it? How so?
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"Tiocfaidh" is an example of weaponisation. Giving council speeches in Irish with no English translation is politicisation and weaponisation. Having Irish-only street signs would be provocation and weaponisation.

A resident of an area using a transparent process (based on an independent international recommendation for minority languages) approved by a democratically elected council to add Irish as a 2nd language to a street sign in their neighbourhood is not weaponisation. Minority language visibility is a sign of normal civic maturity, not a threat.

The Irish language existed long before the IRA, the tricolour, the UK, the British monarchy, or indeed the English language. Framing it primarily through the prism of "the Troubles" is historically illiterate, bolstering extremist nationalist and unionist narratives.
 
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