Irish bankruptcy in the UK is just ripping the rest of us off

D

DB74

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Personally speaking, I find the whole travelling over to the UK to avail of a very simple and quick bankruptcy procedure a quite frankly disgusting abdication of personal responsibility and typical of the change in Irish psyches over the last 15-20 years.

12 months is a ridiculously short time to be allowed to come out of bankruptcy IMO (just as 12 years is far too long). Now while I accept that bankruptcy is the only solution in some instances, there HAS to be some pain involved. I find it absolutely disgraceful that someone can swan off to England for a year, then come back and I have to shoulder the burden of their debt as well as my own.

People in this country made mistakes. Not just big bankers, millionaire developers and politicians (can't think of a suitable printable adjective here!) but ordinary decent working people.

I made mistakes. I took out a mortgage top-up and bought new cars and went on expensive holidays. But I'm paying for it now. I'll admit I'm lucky, I have a full-time job and my wife has a full-time job. However half of our monthly income goes solely on paying the mortgage, servicing stupid loans and paying childcare costs. If we didn't have those loans, my wife wouldn't have to work and she could enjoy our children's formative years.

I would reckon there is not one person in this country who doesn't want to see the likes of David Drumm back in Irish courts having to pay his dues to this State. So what is different about hundreds of little "David Drumms" running off to England to try to do exactly the same thing?

So I would urge our government to pass some form of legislation reducing the bankruptcy discharge period to 5 years while also refusing to accept a discharge from another country where the discharge period is less than this.

If people want to avail of UK bankruptcy then so be it, but lets not make it an easy choice.

Just my 2c anyway

Let the games begin!
 
-they don't even have to go for a year - justa few months will do the trick.
I agree and said something similar in another thread. Absolutely there's need for reform -and the growing escape to Briatin highlights it.
But it's typical of this country to rid itself of problems by exporting them to UK.
 
And while we are at it why don't we flaggelate ourselves as well.

Why does there have to be pain? I am talking to people everyday who are on the verge of suicide because of debt. I hear their tears and their call to me is the hardest thing that they have ever done. This is not an easy decision. The solution may seem to easy to some of you, but admitting that you can't go on and then deciding to give up your house, move to a new country, leave your friends and family behind is excrutiating for people.

Please don't tell me this is easy.

By all means pay your debts as and when you can. If you can't don't KILL yourself. Further don't foist our moral code on others, whose situation you cannot even begin to understand.

Steve
 
12 months is a ridiculously short time to be allowed to come out of bankruptcy IMO (just as 12 years is far too long).
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I think that is the key. If I was bankrupt, I would certainly go to the UK in preference for waiting for the government to modernise our laws. I would imagine that if I went now, I would be out of bankruptcy before the legislation is passed by the Oireachtas.

But let's be clear, the taxpayer/banks are not losing a lot through this process. These people are bankrupt. The process is just recognising that.

If someone has a good salary like you have, DB, they will not be able to apply for bankruptcy because they can pay their debts as they fall due.

And anyone going for bankruptcy has felt a lot of pain already.
 
Is it wrong that the impression is created that after 12 months the person is clear of their financial past. I would have thought that it would be difficult to get a credit card, a mortgage is probably out of the question for a few years. Is there not another 5 years of pain until the credit history is cleared?
 
Current projection is that the Heads of new Insolvency legislation will be made public sometime in March with expectation that legislation will be passed shortly after. Indications currently are that this will be a full insolvency package & not just address bankruptcy law. I note commentary from Michael Noonan that mortgage debt should not be included in future bankruptcy proceedings which gives rise to questions as to how this will be achieved.
In the meantime the UK legislation appears to be readily available to those who wish to avail of it and IMHO I cannot blame anyone who takes that route.
 
DB74 said:
Personally speaking, I find the whole travelling over to the UK to avail of a very simple and quick bankruptcy procedure a quite frankly disgusting abdication of personal responsibility and typical of the change in Irish psyches over the last 15-20 years.

12 months is a ridiculously short time to be allowed to come out of bankruptcy IMO (just as 12 years is far too long). Now while I accept that bankruptcy is the only solution in some instances, there HAS to be some pain involved. I find it absolutely disgraceful that someone can swan off to England for a year, then come back and I have to shoulder the burden of their debt as well as my own.

People in this country made mistakes. Not just big bankers, millionaire developers and politicians (can't think of a suitable printable adjective here!) but ordinary decent working people.

I made mistakes. I took out a mortgage top-up and bought new cars and went on expensive holidays. But I'm paying for it now. I'll admit I'm lucky, I have a full-time job and my wife has a full-time job. However half of our monthly income goes solely on paying the mortgage, servicing stupid loans and paying childcare costs. If we didn't have those loans, my wife wouldn't have to work and she could enjoy our children's formative years.

I would reckon there is not one person in this country who doesn't want to see the likes of David Drumm back in Irish courts having to pay his dues to this State. So what is different about hundreds of little "David Drumms" running off to England to try to do exactly the same thing?

So I would urge our government to pass some form of legislation reducing the bankruptcy discharge period to 5 years while also refusing to accept a discharge from another country where the discharge period is less than this.

If people want to avail of UK bankruptcy then so be it, but lets not make it an easy choice.

Just my 2c anyway

Let the games begin!
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I think you should direct your ire to the imbeciles who guaranteed the private debts of banks thus insulating the ECB ,German ,French banks from taking the hit and foisting it on the Irish citizen, Imagine guaranteeing all bank debts without carrying out due diligence. The same imbeciles are making you and I pay them circa 130k per year in pension drawings and half them in their 50s , just because the stupid Irish government of the day decided to carry these losses . Why ? It's the Government who impose this austerity on you not people like myself who have lost everything I worked for . Two kids under 7 and facing into bankruptcy is not a nice place to be at 42 believe you me .
 
Steve Thatcher said:
And while we are at it why don't we flaggelate ourselves as well.

Why does there have to be pain?
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Because we're Irish, and we feel a need for suffering and self-flagellation to compensate for our own mistakes and shortcomings. As a nation, we pretend that we have rejected the authoritarianism of the pre-Vatican II Catholic Church yet we still cling to some of its most unattractive aspects.
 
Wipetheslate said:
I think you should direct your ire to the imbeciles who guaranteed the private debts of banks thus insulating the ECB ,German ,French banks from taking the hit and foisting it on the Irish citizen, Imagine guaranteeing all bank debts without carrying out due diligence. The same imbeciles are making you and I pay them circa 130k per year in pension drawings and half them in their 50s , just because the stupid Irish government of the day decided to carry these losses . Why ? It's the Government who impose this austerity on you not people like myself who have lost everything I worked for . Two kids under 7 and facing into bankruptcy is not a nice place to be at 42 believe you me .
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I agree 100% with the above. I hope you have the courage to go ahead and get your bankruptcy sorted by the fastest possible route. The same way they saddled the country with their bank guarantee by the fastest possible route i.e. imtroducing overnight leglisation.

Why cant they be so efficient about introducing bankruptcy leglisation?? There is no one in the government with any sense of urgency to deal with personal insolvency, we are waiting more than 3 years!!!
 
DB74 said:
I made mistakes. I took out a mortgage top-up and bought new cars and went on expensive holidays. But I'm paying for it now. I'll admit I'm lucky, I have a full-time job and my wife has a full-time job. However half of our monthly income goes solely on paying the mortgage, servicing stupid loans and paying childcare costs. If we didn't have those loans, my wife wouldn't have to work and she could enjoy our children's formative years.
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So you want to blame all and sundry for your mistakes. Your post is contradictory. You borrowed the money, you bought the cars, bought the house, did the holiday thing. So all this is the fault of those that are trying to better themselves. Blame the Bankers who public ally told lies; earned bonuses for handing out loans and kept them; but please stop blaming others that are in a far worse position than you.
 
So much condemnation of the ordinary people in debt, yet not a whisper about bailing out failed banks, developers and foreign bond holders. Different rules for those who are powerful and well connected.

Billions are being transfered every few months from Anglo (tax payers money)to foreigh bond holders and yet the focus is on ensuring distressed borrowers sufferi even more.

Remember anybody who took out a mortgage, was a tax payer, a contributing member of society, paying PAYE, PRSI, VAT, STAMP DUTY, contributing to employment.
 
Steve Thatcher said:
Why does there have to be pain? I am talking to people everyday who are on the verge of suicide because of debt. I hear their tears and their call to me is the hardest thing that they have ever done. This is not an easy decision. The solution may seem to easy to some of you, but admitting that you can't go on and then deciding to give up your house, move to a new country, leave your friends and family behind is excrutiating for people.

Please don't tell me this is easy.



Steve
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It must be a great source of relief for these people that are suffering and seeking UK bankrupcy that caring guys like you Steve give up your free time and do this pro bono work.
 
ontour said:
Is it wrong that the impression is created that after 12 months the person is clear of their financial past. I would have thought that it would be difficult to get a credit card, a mortgage is probably out of the question for a few years. Is there not another 5 years of pain until the credit history is cleared?
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I would have thought this too. For failed business owners it is also extremely difficult to get new funding for a new venture, whether it be private direct investment or a loan from a bank.

Wipetheslate said:
I think you should direct your ire to the imbeciles who guaranteed the private debts of banks thus insulating the ECB ,German ,French banks from taking the hit and foisting it on the Irish citizen, Imagine guaranteeing all bank debts without carrying out due diligence.
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I agree. DB74, you should be directing your frustration/anger not at people seeking for a speedy bankruptcy, but at the people that ensured that bankruptcies end up costing the taxpayer and not a private investor.
 
T McGibney said:
Because we're Irish, and we feel a need for suffering and self-flagellation to compensate for our own mistakes and shortcomings. As a nation, we pretend that we have rejected the authoritarianism of the pre-Vatican II Catholic Church yet we still cling to some of its most unattractive aspects.
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Not all irish living here though, plenty of foreigners here paying there way, not trying to look at the mud.
 
mcloving said:
Not all irish living here though, plenty of foreigners here paying there way, not trying to look at the mud.
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True, but I'm not sure how many of them have been involved in devising current and recent government policy on bankruptcy, so I don't really see your point.
 
T McGibney said:
True, but I'm not sure how many of them have been involved in devising current and recent government policy on bankruptcy.
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Thats very true, maybe they should be involved, to help speed things up a bit. There is definately a case for suffering as you mentioned in the irish psyche
 
Artemis said:
So much condemnation of the ordinary people in debt, yet not a whisper about bailing out failed banks, developers and foreign bond holders. Different rules for those who are powerful and well connected.
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There has been plenty of whisper and more about the bailing out of the banks et al

We shouldn't have to have a caveat about bailed-out banks etc in every economic discussion from here until the end of time. I think we're all aware of the folly of those actions at this stage.
 
But to get back to the title of the thread:

Any business persons taking the UK bankruptcy way out and just throwing back the strain onto their suppliers.

It is going to lead to a domino effect.

I deal with small traders and see how each is waiting for payment from a customer in order to pay creditors. If the customer does not pay, the small trader cannot pay his debts, and eventually will have to cease trading, putting employees out of work, leaving debts unpaid etc.

This is a downward spiral.
 
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