Ireland the most English country in the World

I know I had the joys shortly after arriving in Ireland of driving through the gaeltacht to wherever I was going. I was happily following signs that had the name of my destination. Then I was into the gaeltacht, and the signs were as useful as a chocolate teapot, and about as annoying as toothache. The biggest issue was going from signs in English to signs in Irish. I don't think the previous ones had been bilingual. This predated smartphones, so no quick and easy google. Fortunately, the guidebook we had had the Irish name of the town, so we could figure out which signs to follow.
 
Duke - a UI is not really central to my point (and UI is something I'm a bit ambivalent/undecided about), lets just go with SF being the biggest party & having the first Minister - which I don't think is that remote over time because whatever about wanting a UI or not, I'm not aware of any strong trend of "nationalists"/catholics voting for unionist parties. Basically the DUP are still using the old playbook but the rules of the game are about to change.

The union crumbling is nothing to do with NI, but its obvious that Westminster is in disarray, Brexit is looking catastrophic, Scots are getting royally (cough) annoyed with power grabs and being dragging into Brexit where they will suffer - so leaving aside any Braveheart facepaint stuff, Scottish independence is veering closer than ever. Should Scotland leave then the UK is effectively done - Wales seems happy enough to trundle away as an adjunct of England, NI will look like a total outlier if its spiritual homeland of Scotland has left the building. Will London continue to foot the bill with the union gone?, I think the pressure for a UI will come from there.

Anyways, I think we both agree that unionism should reconcile itself and get on with the business of getting on, this holding back the tide is not going well - digging in on something as harmless as an Irish language act is a really poor ...well....sign.
 
Betsy Og said:
I'd have no problem in all assembly business being conducted in english, I agree that carry on is mischevious nonsense ..
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I think most people would have no problem in all Assembly business being conducted in Klingon, so long as it was being conducted.

I find it odd that those in Northern Ireland loyal to the Union deny any aspect of Irishness in their heritage, while living in places that are Anglicisation of Irish place names, e.g. Ballymena, Belfast.
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
Ever see an Assembly debate? The Shinners pepper their contributions with gaelic even more so than in the Dail, even though Michelle has only a cupla focail. Why do they do that? Is it because a significant part of the TV audience would not understand English? Is it that they wish to persuade those on the opposite benches to embrace the language? Not at all. It is clear sectarian weaponisation.
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Ive seen Assembly debates. They are political debates between politicians and political parties about political issues in a political arena.
One of the political issues to date is the debates surrounding the Irish language. Perhaps one of the reasons SF 'pepper' their speeches with Irish is to highlight their campaign in support of an Irish Language Act? Despite the cúpla focal.

This is nothing new, SF are I believe supportive of gay marriage. This can sometimes be witnessed through the wearing of emblems or symbols in the political arena - despite, presumably, only a few statistically of them are likely to be gay.
Why would they do that? Is it a sectarianised weapon? Because clearly the DUP are odds, at a minimum, of whether they support gay marriage rights or not.

Neither Irish language rights or gay marriage rights is a sectarian issue.
Only those who fear to embrace change, who fear tolerance, who, lets face it - live in the narrow prism of union jack flag-waving, God Save the Queen and Battle of Boyne think irs a threat and as such resort to infantile mockery of the language.
 
TarfHead said:
I think most people would have no problem in all Assembly business being conducted in Klingon, so long as it was being conducted.

I find it odd that those in Northern Ireland loyal to the Union deny any aspect of Irishness in their heritage, while living in places that are Anglicisation of Irish place names, e.g. Ballymena, Belfast.
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The Shankill;)
 
TheBigShort said:
Neither Irish language rights or gay marriage rights is a sectarian issue.
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You are conflating two very different issues. The Shinners and the DUP have turned the Irish Language into a political and sectarian issue. Just about everything up there is though.
 
Purple said:
You are conflating two very different issues. The Shinners and the DUP have turned the Irish Language into a political and sectarian issue. Just about everything up there is though.
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Political yes, sectarian no.

The Irish language is no more a sectarian issue than gay marriage rights are. People of a various religions, including Protestants can and do speak Irish.
 
TheBigShort said:
Political yes, sectarian no.

The Irish language is no more a sectarian issue than gay marriage rights are. People of a various religions, including Protestants can and do speak Irish.
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The Irish language is very much a Nationalist identifier, whether it should be or not is a different issue.
 
TheBigShort said:
Political yes, sectarian no.

The Irish language is no more a sectarian issue than gay marriage rights are. People of a various religions, including Protestants can and do speak Irish.
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Soccer is not intrinsically sectarian. In Norn Iron, Celtic vs Rangers is about as tribal/sectarian as it gets.

Arlene was on the verge of conceding some Act na Gaelige to SF but on sounding out the "grass roots" there was an overwhelming rejection of any such concession. Consulting grass roots in NI is essentially a sectarian exercise and SF had managed to make the Irish language a symbolic struggle between the two communities of Celtic/Rangers proportions.

You seem to regard the use of Irish in the Assembly as legitimate political posturing. The SDLP support an Act but they don't rub the other side's nose in it with what is a blatant provocation.
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
Arlene was on the verge of conceding some Act na Gaelige to SF
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Duke of Marmalade said:
You seem to regard the use of Irish in the Assembly as legitimate political posturing. The SDLP support an Act .
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Not just the SDLP, the Greens, PBP, Alliance, quite a broad range across the political spectrum in fact.
So any Acht is not a concession to SF but simply a recognition of the rights of citizens to protect and promote a part of their heritage which has been recognised as being under threat from existence.
People are funny like that, wanting to protect things they value that they believe may be under threat. There is next to no evidence that the Irish language or an Irish Language Act is in anyway a threat to anybody.
 
TheBigShort said:
Whats the provocation?

Go raibh maith agat - thank you. It is a civil and polite way to address anybody.
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Well, you are probably not as familiar with the NI psyche as me, but for the majority up there if they had their thanks expressed in those terms they would see it as a provocative political/sectarian signal.
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
Well, you are probably not as familiar with the NI psyche as me, but for the majority up there if they had their thanks expressed in those terms they would see it as a provocative political/sectarian signal.
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I doubt it. I appreciate that there is a not insignificant number who would think that way but I would put them in the minority.
I think on both the nationalist and unionist sides, outside of the active political sphere , the vast majority would treat such an expression with little more than a bit of bemusement.

Either or, this is where political leadership comes to play. Arlene has tried to make some inroads on the hard psyche of loyalism, but obviously more work to be done.
She cant do it on her own so maybe these people can help?

https://www.ebm.org.uk/turas/
 
A heartening link B/S. A few years back I was at an exhibition in Belfast's Linenhall Library commemorating my grand uncle's work. In the room where the pictures were displayed there was taking place a Bible meeting of old dears (mostly ladies). Very presbyterian but it was being conducted in Irish!
That Turas see it necessary to draw attention to the fact that the majority of Scotland's speakers are Protestant shows how sectarian an image has been gleaned in the context of NI. SF with their antics in the Assembly etc. have brought the sectarian dimension to new heights. SF are the worst enemy of those who would like to see a pluralist embrace of our heritage.
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
SF with their antics in the Assembly etc. have brought the sectarian dimension to new heights. SF are the worst enemy of those who would like to see a pluralist embrace of our heritage.
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We will have to agree to disagree Duke (theres a shock!:eek:)

Seriously though, I understand the underbelly of the sectarian divide manifesting itself inside the political arena, particularly over issues of culture. But in the end, all this lasting peace, the emergence of a new generation of politicians etc - Im hopeful that more tolerant mindsets will emerge in the time ahead.
The Irish language is part of all our heritage, not SF's. We can choose to embrace it or let it die. For those who want to embrace and protect it, that needs to be tolerated.
 
Isn't it clear enough that wrapping culture in tricolours is an attempt to make it the preserve of one tradition. Irish obv pre-dates the concept of countries as we understand them. It is disappointing that SF has latched onto this.

The GAA (of which I am a huge fan) was born out of cultural revival/nationalism in late 1800's and part of the republican struggle into the early 1920s - so I guess that history puts it definitely in one camp. However, in normal societies history is left to one side after a respectful period - or ignored if problematic (e.g. Civil war), NI is of course an exception where 1690 is more relevant than 1990..... That said I think it was unfortunate (though inevitable) that GAA got the tag of 'the IRA at play', clubs named after "volunteers", security forces bans, army bases built on pitches, 2 undercover officers murdered in Casement Park, various targeting of GAA players and officials by loyalists. So I can see how it will take longer for the GAA to ever gain the tolerance/interest of the other tradition - which is unusual in that its so much easier to enjoy a sport than learn a language.

Anyways, it is not necessary (even if preferable) that we appreciate each others cultures, as long as we respect them enough not to block them. Soccer is a potential integrating factor, but I don't think enough nationalist kids are given the chance to play.
 
Betsy Og said:
So I can see how it will take longer for the GAA to ever gain the tolerance/interest of the other tradition - which is unusual in that its so much easier to enjoy a sport than learn a language.

Anyways, it is not necessary (even if preferable) that we appreciate each others cultures, as long as we respect them enough not to block them. Soccer is a potential integrating factor, but I don't think enough nationalist kids are given the chance to play.
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I always thought that Rugby had more of a potential. I'm thinking of the cultural differences between those who play it in Munster and Ulster more than Ulster and Leinster. In Leinster it was the preserve of private schools and while that is changing they still dominate it here.
 
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