Interesting data on who gets paid what in the public service

[cremeegg]

The future funding and guaranteed pensions for people in the private sector who through the paye system paid PRSI A1 and stealth levy along with income tax on there wages all of there working life is one of the most important issues and needs to be addressed and have the same guarantee as a public service pension.This needs to be written in to law same as if the worked in the public service.At present if government start to to run out of money by law they would have to pay the public service pensions the could stop paying the private sector pension.What posters don't realize it is already happening since they done away with the transition pension public sector workers on the integrated pension who retire from age 60 to 66 see there public sector pension is topped up until the reach pension age 66.I suspect the money is from the PRSI Fund and there employed dose not even pay into it if purple is correct in what he says.(this is not an anti public service rant if anything it is a rant at the private sector for allowing the government to pull the wool over there eyes) The Government need to put 10.75% of the public service wage bill along with the private sector into a fund so there is money building up to foward fund private sector pensions and public sector intergrated pensions.I know the public sector will still get paid even if there is no money in the PRSI Fund the Government still will have to pay and top up public sector pension for any short fall to prsi pension,

Nope, back to our old form I see.

Just to address two points raised.

There is, as far as I am aware, no such thing as a PRSI fund. Money collected as PRSI is simply used by the government to pay its ongoing general expenditure. When the current generation of workers comes to retire the only money available to pay their pensions will be revenue collected by the government, under whatever heading, at that time.

The point that the legal obligation to pay public sector pensions ranks ahead of the need to pay any old age pension I believe to be true. This a very important and under appreciated issue.

 

[jjm]

I am interested in the employees contribution as that's the contribution they are paying for their pension - it's the deduction from your payslip. What's that percentage please?

I did see data on a post on askaboutmoney related to the public service pensions and levy and the looked very high for what the were getting if they were paying a PRSI A1 which included the state pension it was far from gold plated if you were on a low grade 3 or 4 .You have a better chance of knowing what the precentage are seeing you posted on a few occasions that Mrs firefly worked in the HSE,I still think you have to include the 10.75% Employers conts seeing this revenue is directly linked to each taxpayer who pay prsi Class A1 and is a direct link to a % of there wages and no ones else,I know the reason why people get squeeky bums and muddy the water when i point this out that 10.75% is taken every time a PRSI CA1 gets paid for another tread some time,

 

[Firefly]

I still think you have to include the 10.75% Employers conts seeing this revenue is directly linked to each taxpayer who pay prsi Class A1

You pay a certain percentage, your employer pays a certain percentage. What percentage do you pay? That's the cost to you in funding your pension?

 

[gipimann]

Nope, back to our old form I see.

There is, as far as I am aware, no such thing as a PRSI fund. Money collected as PRSI is simply used by the government to pay its ongoing general expenditure. When the current generation of workers comes to retire the only money available to pay their pensions will be revenue collected by the government, under whatever heading, at that time.

There is a specific Social Insurance Fund, which is used to pay "benefit" SW payments such as Jobseeker's Benefit, Illness Benefit, Maternity Benefit and Contributory Pensions. It is not used for general expenditure.

 

[cremeegg]

There is a specific Social Insurance Fund, which is used to pay "benefit" SW payments such as Jobseeker's Benefit, Illness Benefit, Maternity Benefit and Contributory Pensions. It is not used for general expenditure.

Is there ?

What is the value of the fund at present ?

 

[jjm]

Nope, back to our old form I see.

Just to address two points raised.

There is, as far as I am aware, no such thing as a PRSI fund. Money collected as PRSI is simply used by the government to pay its ongoing general expenditure. When the current generation of workers comes to retire the only money available to pay their pensions will be revenue collected by the government, under whatever heading, at that time.

The point that the legal obligation to pay public sector pensions ranks ahead of the need to pay any old age pension I believe to be true. This a very important and under appreciated issue.

I stand to be corrected but not my understanding there is a seperate PRSI FUND and it has being in surplus for years I believe it went into deficit for short time a few years ago and is now back in surplus again , PRSI along with the levy sometimes is collected by revenue and passed on to social protection actually this is one of the reasons not all mind you why from time to time you get the odd squeeky bum when I mention the fact that PRSI Class A1 was always more than 4% Revenue do not do a good job on collecting the levy it is not there main job they were only collecting it for someone else not like tax before the usc came in I suspect lots of people who should have paid the levy did not so don't mention the levy please'

 

[cremeegg]

I stand to be corrected but not my understanding there is a seperate PRSI FUND and it has being in surplus for years I believe it went into deficit for short time a few years ago and is now back in surplus again ,

I think the idea that the PRSI FUND is in surplus just means that more was collected than paid out in a given year. I don't think there is any actual fund

PRSI along with the levy sometimes is collected by revenue and passed on to social protection

As I understand it, all revenue collected by the state goes into the same pot. It is then distributed to the various government departments under the budget. There is no separate PRSI fund.

I may be wrong. But this is my understanding.

 

[Firefly]

There is no separate PRSI fund.

I may be wrong. But this is my understanding.

There is a fund don't you know? It's the private pension funds that were raided a few years ago!

 

[jjm]

There is a fund don't you know? It's the private pension funds that were raided a few years ago!

Common since and you would know there is a PRSI FUND nothing to do with private pensions
If you think about it we are taking 14.75% of all the wages paid by people on PRSI Class A1 along with all other prsi that is a lot of money every week to be taking in ,There is a fund and people need to demand it is used more for the people who put the most in and not squandered,we need to have more say and insist on how it is used,why would the goverment waste time splitting up the prsi paid by Paye workers calling some of it PRSI 4% and the balance a levy up untill 2012 if it was going into the same pot

 

[jjm]

There is a specific Social Insurance Fund, which is used to pay "benefit" SW payments such as Jobseeker's Benefit, Illness Benefit, Maternity Benefit and Contributory Pensions. It is not used for general expenditure.

can you post a link please

 

[Firefly]

Common since and you would know there is a PRSI FUND nothing to do with private pensions

I was joking. There is no fund. Private pensions were raided a number of years ago.

If you think about it we are taking 14.75% of all the wages paid by people on PRSI Class A1 that is a lot of money every week to be taking in ,

With respect, you are like a broken record. For the last time, what percentage of your pay goes towards your pension?

 

[cremeegg]

Ok just to be clear.

Although the term is used by the Department of Finance, its meaning is not what is usually considered a fund. There is no fund.

The amount spent on Social Insurance exceeded the amount collected every year from 2010 to 2014, by an average of €1.3 bn each year.

http://www.finance.gov.ie/sites/default/files/14.08 Pay Related Social Insurance.pdf

 

[jjm]

I was joking. There is no fund. Private pensions were raided a number of years ago.


With respect, you are like a broken record. For the last time, what percentage of your pay goes towards your pension?

the company i work for have a very good pension scheme since 1982 It is a defined benefit designed to pay out 2/3 of my final saleryincluding the state pension .I also have an ARF With all due respect I' don't think it is any of your buisness how much i pay in ,the defined pension scheme is in surplus when it was last checked by pension Actuaries around 12 months ago,

 

[jjm]

Ok just to be clear.

Although the term is used by the Department of Finance, its meaning is not what is usually considered a fund. There is no fund.

The amount spent on Social Insurance exceeded the amount collected every year from 2010 to 2014, by an average of €1.3 bn each year.

http://www.finance.gov.ie/sites/default/files/14.08 Pay Related Social Insurance.pdf

we should try and break down what it is spent on to see who is benefiting form it, I remember hearing that it was back in surplus possibly over a year ago but i may be wrong,

 

[cremeegg]

It may be, I couldn't find figures for 2015 or later.

But what does that mean, back in surplus, it just means more was collected than spent in a given year. The surplus is not kept to spend on Social Insurance costs in future years.

It is just spent as part of general government spending.

 

[Firefly]

the company i work for have a very good pension scheme since 1982 It is a defined benefit designed to pay out 2/3 of my final including the state pension .I also have an ARF With all due respect I' don't think it is any of your buisness how much i pay in ,

I'm not asking how much you pay in. You have given an example of a salary of 37,000 with an employer & employee contribution of 10.75%. I wish to know what percentage is paid by the employee. This is the cost to the employee and helps determine what you asked me, namely to determine whether or not the employee funds their own pension.

 

[jjm]

It may be, I couldn't find figures for 2015 or later.

But what does that mean, back in surplus, it just means more was collected than spent in a given year. The surplus is not kept to spend on Social Insurance costs in future years.

It is just spent as part of general government spending.

I know that ,
As the same time we need to get a handle on who is pulling from it,
As you can see all prsi is counted separate only 4% of the 6 to 8% taken under the heading of PRSI out of my wages finished up being counted balance taken as levy this would have made a big difference on paper if the 6 to 8% was counted I know before you say it it all finished up being spent but we need to start question is the government going to treat people people who put in the same amount the same,


The point I have being making and I know you will check facts is up until 2012 paye workers paid over 6% prsi around 4% was went into the above so called fund the balance was taken as a levy which did not show up in the so called fund I am highlighting this fact so it will not happen again,

 

[jjm]

I'm not asking how much you pay in. You have given an example of a salary of 37,000 with an employer & employee contribution of 10.75%. I wish to know what percentage is paid by the employee. This is the cost to the employee and helps determine what you asked me, namely to determine whether or not the employee funds their own pension.

As i already said you have a better chance of getting that information from Mrs firefly pay slip,I am challanging you to back up what you said

The thing is though, it comes nowhere to covering the cost, which means someone else must pay for it.

can you please show me where you got the the information to made the above statment

 

[Firefly]

Jim...

OK. So I have used the online pension modelling tool at www.cspensions.gov.ie and entered a fictitious name with the following details:

Joined post 1995
Salary 37,000
Pensionable service 22 years
Retiring at 65

I don't know how to post screenshots but here is the text from the data returned:

Retirement Benefits Statement (Based on details supplied by you)


Personal Details acme acme @
Date of Birth 1/1/1970 Projected retirement date at age 65 01/01/2035
Pensionable Service to date
Service from today to retirement 5 Years and 0 Days
17 Years and 179 Days Projected future working pattern 100% (Full Time)
Total reckonable service 22 Years and 179 Days Pensionable Remuneration €37,000

Your Benefits on retiring at age 65 (Based on current salary and Social Welfare rate)
If you retire at age 65 you would receive a once off tax-free retirement gratuity of €31,205, less the deduction of any outstanding contributions. You would also receive a pension of €4,161. Your pension would be paid in arrears on a fortnightly basis. Based on your Class A Social Welfare status, you may also be entitled to a Social Welfare contributory Old Age Pension from age 66, currently €12,173.59 per annum. If through no fault of your own you fail to qualify for a Social Welfare benefit, you may be entitled to a supplementary pension.


From your previous posts I note the following:

PRSI Class A1 Employee's paid 8% employer's paid 10.75 Employer's/employee's paid a total of 18.75%

This would lead me to think that the employee contribution is 10.75%.

So....The contributions in this case are:

37,000 * 10.75% * 22 years which is 87,505.

Subtract the tax-free lumpsum referred to above (31,205) from 87,505 and your total net contribution is 56,300 - that's what you have contributed As per above this is going to pay out €4,161 annually. So....I put it back to you....show me any pension provider who will pay out €4,161 per year on an annuity amount of 56,300!!!

Just to add....the numbers are not massive I agree, but once you start going up the food chain to those earning 70k+ the numbers get a lot bigger!

 

[jjm]

Firefly for a start if you are 65 in 2017 what year were you born in,4161 and 12173 added together and you are up near 40 years service.I would not like to have you investing my pension funds at you rate of returns,