Interesting data on who gets paid what in the public service

jjm2016 said:
Firefly I would sooner have a teacher with passion for there Job With a pass than a teacher who got a masters just to earn Higher Salary,
We need to raise New Entrants wages In the public service .Ireland high cost of Living on younger people need to be looked at.The older you are in Ireland the less cost you have
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We need to reduce the costs of living, then, especially housing costs.
 
Páid said:
I agree. The academic allowances are for those teachers who may have more than just a primary degree when they start teaching and for teachers who continually educate themselves in order to remain current.


This thread is on the subject of remuneration, not the performance of a small percentage of teachers who don't meet your "real world" standard.
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Lots of differing opinions on teachers remuneration, etc, but not nice to see the criticism teachers get with regard to their pay. I'm no teacher and don't think I could ever be capable of performing their work with the amount of paperwork, rules, schedules, parental substitution , bullying, supervision, changing curriculums, etc, etc, that happens today. On the other hand, if teachers only did what they were paid for and in doing so fully carried out their duties, but didn't do one other thing outside of what's legally expected, then I feel we would be a hell lot more appreciative of what it is they really do in today's world. I personally have huge respect for the profession, they're by and large fantastic people who really go out of their way to help others, but of course that's all forgotten about by people who conveniently think school ends when classes end.
 
Páid said:
This thread is on the subject of remuneration, not the performance of a small percentage of teachers who don't meet your "real world" standard.
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Do you think that all teachers are teaching at or above the required standard and quality? If not do you think there should be a real mechanism for getting rid of them since teaching is such an important job (and I believe it is)?
If no mechanism is in place and while no teacher is ever measured to see if they are in fact delivering good quality teaching why do you contend that only a small percentage of teachers are no good?
One in six of us are functionally illiterate and 25% have basic numeracy problems. We are 15th out of 26 in the OECD rankings and slipping. We have no University in the top 200 in any rankings that matter. That's hardly a world class education system and certainly doesn't show that we have anything other an average of than C- level teachers. If I worked in the Education sector/profession/industry I wouldn't be patting myself on the back and if I worked hard and was good at my job I certainly wouldn't want to be judged by the lowest common denominator as your overpaid representatives so vociferously insist happens.
 
noproblem said:
Lots of differing opinions on teachers remuneration, etc, but not nice to see the criticism teachers get with regard to their pay. I'm no teacher and don't think I could ever be capable of performing their work with the amount of paperwork, rules, schedules, parental substitution , bullying, supervision, changing curriculums, etc, etc, that happens today. On the other hand, if teachers only did what they were paid for and in doing so fully carried out their duties, but didn't do one other thing outside of what's legally expected, then I feel we would be a hell lot more appreciative of what it is they really do in today's world. I personally have huge respect for the profession, they're by and large fantastic people who really go out of their way to help others, but of course that's all forgotten about by people who conveniently think school ends when classes end.
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And yet we are 15th our of 26 in the OECD education rankings and falling. Why not look at the facts and judge the sector accordingly. It is possible that they are all great people but are they any good at their job or is what they are being asked to deliver fit for purpose?
 
This thread is about teacher pay (among others), not performance. You both seems to be suggesting that teachers are to blame for the rankings and there are no other factors involved. That's very shortsighted to say the least. And it still has nothing to do with this thread.
 
cremeegg said:
There are many qualified applicants for every teaching job, over a hundred applicants for every garda job. We clearly do not need to raise their salaries to recruit people. If you think it would be nice for them to have a bit more, good for you, but I don't want to have to pay for it.

There are problems recruiting nurses, this needs to be rectified, but the issue seems to have more to do with working conditions than with salary levels.
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In truth Cremeegg , that boat has already sailed.
The Labour Court in it's impartial wisdom has recommended quite substantial improvements to pay & terms & conditions for the Gardai which may or may not solve pro tem the IR difficulties in that organisation.
The knock on effect is that despite the current minority Goverment's defence of the Lansdowne Road Agreement it does appear that such Agreement has been holed below the waterline.
The Government may hold matters together by bringing forward the €2000 pay restoration figure due to PS employees earning under €65000, personally I feel this may not be enough.
 
Páid said:
This thread is about teacher pay (among others), not performance.
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There should always be a link between pay and performance.

Páid said:
You both seems to be suggesting that teachers are to blame for the rankings and there are no other factors involved. That's very shortsighted to say the least. And it still has nothing to do with this thread.
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I'm suggesting it might be the case but I also asked if what they were being asked to deliver was fit for purpose. Of course if it isn't the teachers Unions will block any improvement, just as they have with the junior cert.
 
Deiseblue said:
In truth Cremeegg , that boat has already sailed.
The Labour Court in it's impartial wisdom has recommended quite substantial improvements to pay & terms & conditions for the Gardai which may or may not solve pro tem the IR difficulties in that organisation.
The knock on effect is that despite the current minority Goverment's defence of the Lansdowne Road Agreement it does appear that such Agreement has been holed below the waterline.
The Government may hold matters together by bringing forward the €2000 pay restoration figure due to PS employees earning under €65000, personally I feel this may not be enough.
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...and they seem to be ok with the cuts in services to people who really need those services in order to fund their pay increases. Charming.
 
cremeegg Re post 18, You are paying a high price because New Entrants Wages were low. It has not sank in yet . Taking Allowances off New Garda Entrants on low pay and Still paying it to well paid higher up members Was the reason we finished up giving all Garda a pay increase .All garda should be well paid on a flatter scale.Strange we want garda to retire after 30 years .They must be going down hill and getting paid at the top of the scale. Yet young Garda are paid on the lower end have we the scales the wrong way around. The are all paid to do a good Job any I have ever got anything to do with young or old do a good Job hard to see why there should be such a gap in there pay scales,
 
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News is just breaking that the goverment have invited the unions to talks on post LRA. Sorry, I don't have the link, just a phone call from someone very reliable who is in the know.
 
jjm2016 said:
cremeegg Re post 18, You are paying a high price because New Entrants Wages were low. It has not sank in yet . Taking Allowances off New Garda Entrants on low pay and Still paying it to well paid higher up members Was the reason we finished up giving all Garda a pay increase .All garda should be well paid on a flatter scale.Strange we want garda to retire after 30 years .They must be going down hill and getting paid at the top of the scale. Yet young Garda are paid on the lower end have we the scales the wrong way around. The are all paid to do a good Job any I have ever got anything to do with young or old do a good Job hard to see why there should be such a gap in there pay scales,
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I couldn't agree more. And it applies in teaching as well. The concept of increments is a joke.
 
Let us be clear here... I am a teacher and I don't get any 'teaching through Irish', 'Gaeltacht' or any of those other allowances posted by Brendan at the start of the thread. It is only a small number of teachers who get them. Of course this turned into a teacher-bashing thread, making it out that we are on inflated salaries. We're not. I'm not even going to comment on the added extras other public sector workers get because I am respectful of ALL workers.

It is funny how the people who think they know everything about being a teacher are not teachers. Not a clue.
 
Sanparom said:
I am respectful of ALL workers.
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Respect should be earned not given by default.

How are teachers paid compared in Ireland compared to other countries? If they are paid more they should do more and get better results. If they are paid less then we should aim to match the EU on pay but also productivity.

My fear is that they are paid more while having one of the shortest school years. I'd like to be corrected on that.
 
Deiseblue said:
In truth Cremeegg , that boat has already sailed.
The Labour Court in it's impartial wisdom has recommended quite substantial improvements to pay & terms & conditions for the Gardai which may or may not solve pro tem the IR difficulties in that organisation.
The knock on effect is that despite the current minority Goverment's defence of the Lansdowne Road Agreement it does appear that such Agreement has been holed below the waterline.
The Government may hold matters together by bringing forward the €2000 pay restoration figure due to PS employees earning under €65000, personally I feel this may not be enough.
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Hi Deise,

Hope all that sun's not going to your head!

Given that we cannot borrow any more and cannot print our own money and are already running a deficit, we have 2 options to fund these increases - either tax increases or taking money from elsewhere. Would you mind outlining your stance on how these pay rises should be funded?
 
According to the OECD report - Education at a glance 2016 ( available online ) teaching hours in Ireland are much longer , 915 per year at primary level compared to the average of 776 across the OECD & 735 hours at upper secondary level compared to 644.
The report said pay for teachers starting out is lower than the OECD average but rises significantly above it after 15 years service however ASTI point out that up to one half of second level teachers under 35 work less than full hours.
Expenditure on education in Ireland is down by 7% since 2008 while it rose by 8% across the OECD.
Also we have significantly larger class sizes - 25 pupils per class at primary level - EU average 20 , third level 20 compared to EU average of 16 - courtesy of 2015 report.
 
[broken link removed] shows average pay levels from 2000 to 2008. It is strange that there is no more up to date data but things have not changed greatly since 2008. The average increase was 56% and inflation over the same period was 36%.
The lowest increase was prison officers at 26% but that was due to roster changes as overtime was being severely abused. The largest gains were in 3rd level with an average increase of just under 70% (is this a reason for the gap in funding and fee increases at third level?). Average pay at primary level was €46,124. Average pay at second level was €56,056. This of course does not include the value of the contributions which would be necessary to fund their pension. With a working life of 40 years and assuming the employee is paying full PRSI, with no lump sum payment the employee would have to pay 20% of their income to fund their pension. That means the real value of the package is closer to €55,000 for primary teachers and €67,000 for second level teachers. I'm not suggesting they are earning too much or that they are not worth it. I don't know enough to form an opinion either way. I am suggesting that we should have a discussion based on the real figures.

If anyone can give a more comprehensive analysis taking any cuts and the pension levy into account that would be great.

I also think we should have a less emotive discussion nationally about the quality of the outcomes from our education system. It is a nonsense to suggest that we have a world class education system. It is also a nonsense to blame all shortcomings on teachers.
 
I was going to ignore this thread but I had to add my comment after what I’d read. Punishing teachers by withholding pay because the children don’t do well in a test is like withdrawing children’s allowance from parents if the children don’t behave themselves in public. There is a lot more to a child’s education than exams.

It would be worth looking at what has happened to education in other countries and compare it with our own situation.

If you look at the PISA scores and compare Finland and the UK you will see why we should be looking at what has worked in Finland. Finland is ranked 5th (Subjects tested: Reading, Maths and Science). The UK is ranked 26th. Ireland is between them in 14th place.

There is a vast difference between how teachers in Finland and teachers in the UK are treated. First of all teachers in Finland are respected. From speaking to a lot of teachers from the UK they are not. Teachers in Finland are well paid. Teachers in the UK are not. Teachers in Finland are given autonomy. Teachers in the UK are not. Teachers in Finland are not held responsible for children’s performance. In fact Finland does not use standardised testing at all. Teachers in the UK assess the children at least 3 times a year (Writing, Reading & Maths). This testing is used to track the “progress” of the children. They are expected to make a certain amount of progress each term/year. This puts a huge amount of pressure on the children and the teachers. As well as that there is a de facto payments by results system in the UK and that clearly has done nothing but create more stress for teachers.

Unless we want to end up with a broken education system like they have the UK we should behave more as the Fins do. It is clear that the system in the UK is broken. Not alone have their results been poor there has been a huge exodus from teaching. However, Finland has no such problem.

One last comment I should add. Not everyone who does well in the Leaving Cert is cut out to be a teacher. Teachers need to be kind, compassionate, approachable, fair, diligent, curious, responsible, supportive, capable and fun. They have to be good at and interested in all the subjects taught on the primary curriculum. They have to be able to entertain, protect, inspire, cajole, punish, etc. Teachers are in loco parentis. I have never come across a teacher who does not take this role seriously. They consider the children in their class to be their responsibility, “their children” for the time that they are working with them. They will do whatever they can to help those children succeed. There are many reasons that there are adults who are functionally illiterate. I’ve worked with some in the past. Some said they had to leave school early to support their families. Others had learning difficulties which would have been addressed if there was a proper Learning Support system in place at the time. That has been rectified by the Department. At the time these people would have been in school there were either no supports or they were very limited. (Class sizes have not been reduced significantly. You could easily have a class of 30 or more. The support teachers are counted when the pupil teacher ratios are being discussed.)

I feel very strongly that we should stop blaming teachers for something that is beyond their control.

Oh and just in case anyone is under the impression that I am living in the lap of luxury I am not. I bought a modest house in a rough housing estate because that was all I could afford. I don’t go off on expensive foreign holidays. I don’t have a flash car. My salary is basically the same as it was 12 years ago. Come to think of it, I’m not sure what I’m doing here. I think I should look into getting a job in Finland!
 
Firefly said:
Hi Deise,

Hope all that sun's not going to your head!

Given that we cannot borrow any more and cannot print our own money and are already running a deficit, we have 2 options to fund these increases - either tax increases or taking money from elsewhere. Would you mind outlining your stance on how these pay rises should be funded?
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Firefly , back in Ireland for December & then off again .

I have seen nothing to suggest that we cannot continue to borrow more than was intended even if the Government wishes to avoid that eventuality .
I think that Jack O'Connors point that the 9% VAT rate enjoyed by the Tourist industry should revert to the previous rate of 13.5% now that such industry has obviously recovered given that 2016 was the best year ever for Irish tourism breaking all previous records , it should be noted that the ESRI has also questioned the need to retain the 9% rate.
Such a mooted increase would raise €600 million a year.
It's also encouraging to see the Revenue raising their game against rampant tax evasion & are preparing for a major clampdown on offshore tax evasion as the Revenue will soon have access to oversea accounts held by Irish Tax payers - should be interesting to say the least.
Hopefully Mr. Noonan's targeting of vulture funds will also produce dividends.
Then we have the putative sale of AIB & the State's interest in BOI.
With unemployment down to 7.7% the knock on effect is an increase in tax revenues & a decrease in unemployment assistance.
 
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