Indo - "There is no cost of living crisis for majority of people in Ireland says IBEC CEO"

[ClubMan]

So you prefer the media impression that everyone is in dire poverty in this country?

Where did I say or even imply that?

And even if there's a cost of living "crisis" that doesn't necessarily mean dire poverty. Living beyond one's means is one way to create a cost of living crisis.

When we don't have statistics, we have to guess.

I presume that the CSO or other respected body has relevant statistics but since I'm not the one making claims one way or another I'm not going to spend my time researching this. But if someone from from the likes of IBEC is going to make public claims about this then I would expect them to use more than guesswork and speculation for their pronouncements.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

There is no reasonable metric anywhere by which taxes on individuals and families can be said to be low,

On the contrary. We have discussed this at length before on askaboutmoney.

People argue that we enter the top bracket relatively early, which is true. But the effective tax rate for low and middle earners is below average while for single people and higher earners it's about average.

Is Ireland a highly taxed country?

In popular discussion, one would get the impression that Ireland is a highly taxed country with a squeezed middle. The ESRI did a good report on effective tax rates. https://www.esri.ie/system/files/publications/RS110.pdf Ireland is a low tax country for almost everyone: With very low PRSI

www.askaboutmoney.com

These figures are a few years old, but I don't think that tax rates have increased in Ireland and reduced elsewhere to change the overall conclusion. But I am open to correction if anyone has more up to date figures.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

If there wasn't a cost of living crisis, why did they do that?

Anything to do with the imminent election?

 

[TomEdison]

It does when you drill down and adjust the trend figures for population increase.

Doesn't seem so. Population growth over the period was 5.3%, but on the HIA figures the numbers covered by private health insurance went up by 8.2%.

 

[T McGibney]

for single people and higher earners it's about average.

on what basis, Brendan?

 

[T McGibney]

Doesn't seem so. Population growth over the period was 5.3%, but on the HIA figures the numbers covered by private health insurance went up by 8.2%.

Maybe review that increase in the light of the numbers who terminated cover in the aftermath of the 2008 crash.

 

[T McGibney]

I don't think that tax rates have increased in Ireland and reduced elsewhere to change the overall conclusion.

How many other properly functioning and flourishing countries have an equivalent to the USC?

 

[Brendan Burgess]

on what basis, Brendan?

All the data in the other thread.

 

[ClubMan]

if anyone has more up to date figures.

In terms of income tax and social insurance, any use?

Personal average tax rates in Europe: Increases and cuts in 2024

The tax burden on workers, composed of income tax and social security contributions, varies widely across Europe. In 2024, this burden changed significantly in some countries, with notable rises and falls.

www.euronews.com

 

[TomEdison]

How many other properly functioning and flourishing countries have an equivalent to the USC?

Actually, broad-based charges on income that are notionally separate from income tax and from social insurance contributions but are used to fund public expenditure are not uncommon internationally , and they are often higher than 1%. Germany and France both have them. Where did you think we got the idea?

 

[Brendan Burgess]

In terms of income tax and social insurance, any use?

Not really. No distinction between low and high earners, single and married.

I have looked at a few studies and they are all deficient. For example, the ICTU compared taxes as a percentage of GDP.

This one is one of the best, but it's 2019.

https://publicpolicy.ie/papers/comparing-irish-income-taxation-rates-with-other-eu-member-states/#:~:text=In%202019%2C%20the%20income%20tax,average%20of%2025%25%20in%202019.

I don't think that they do such studies anymore. They are now part of UCD and from a quick scan of their recent studies, they tend to do studies to reflect the left wing bias of the Departments of Sociology.

 

[T McGibney]

All the data in the other thread

The data in that thread by and large compares Ireland to large well-established countries with long-developed infrastructure, many of whom were former colonial powers. I'd be far more interested in comparisons with less well or more recently developed countries like those in the PIIGS or New Europe brackets.

 

[T McGibney]

Actually, broad-based charges on income that are notionally separate from income tax and from social insurance contributions but are used to fund public expenditure are not uncommon internationally , and they are often higher than 1%. Germany and France both have them.

I'm told that only about 10% of the highest-earning Germans are required to pay their Solidarity Surcharge (Solidaritätszuschlag).
Their Church Tax is voluntary.

The French surcharges seem tailormade to fund elaborate social provision to a level that we don't enjoy.

 

[Purple]

The other point is that the Government rolled out expensive cost of living measures in Budgets, to mitigate the effects of the increases in the cost of living.
If there wasn't a cost of living crisis, why did they do that?

What data, in the context of this discussion, is used to define this as a crisis?
In my view this is just more populist catastrophising by the opposition and the media.

List of crisis;
Cost of living crisis.
Healthcare recruitment and retention crisis.
Teaching recruitment and retention crisis.
Housing crisis.
Rental cost crisis.
...add as appropriate.

Then there's the epidemics:
Road deaths epidemic (despite it being less than 10% of what it was 40 years ago)
Suicide epidemic.
Drugs epidemic.
Rural crime epidemic (also a crisis)
Urban crime epidemic (not a crisis)

None of these things are problems or challenges, they are crisis and epidemics.

I think we should just admit defeat, pack up and go and live in Sudan or Syria or some place not as benighted and blighted as here.

From the previously linked Irish Times article:
As part of the Economic and Social Research Institute’s appraisal of Budget 2025, the think tank’s Claire Keane said it was important to note that poverty rates would have increased “really, really substantially” without those interventions in the budget.

ERSI guy used "really really big" to quantify something. Well that's really really useful.

 

[Purple]

Not really. No distinction between low and high earners, single and married.

There's better date in the full article, linked in the article ClubMan quoted.
That shows that a single person with no children in Ireland had the 4th highest effective income tax rate.
A single person earning 167% of the average wage pays 33.4%, the second highest in Europe.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

There's better date in the full article, linked in the article ClubMan quoted.

A bit better, but still averages as far as I can see. And it excludes PRSI.

The OECD’s Taxing Wages 2025 report breaks down tax rates using several indicators. Euronews focuses on income tax as a share of gross wage earnings. This shows how much of your salary goes to income tax. Social security contributions are not included in this calculation.

 

[odyssey06]

...

ERSI guy used "really really big" to quantify something. Well that's really really useful.

She should have done a McCoy on it and just pulled figures out of thin air?
Is that useful?

She's provided a quote to a media outlet, reasonable to assume it is based on their actual research, such as:

Temporary cost-of-living measures, which have been a feature of this and the last number of budgets, are providing considerable assistance to many households... The organisation said without these measures, the at-risk-of-poverty rate of retired households would be five percentage points higher than had been estimated for 2025.

Here's some more details from the ESRI if you want details.

Most low-income households had to make high-risk changes to their finances to cope with the cost-of-living crisis, according to new ESRI research. Typical changes included entering arrears, taking on more debt, or eating into savings. These decisions are linked to damaging long-term effects, including on mental health.

Low-income households made high-risk financial changes to cope with cost-of-living crisis

www.esri.ie

 

[Protocol]

Over the 5-year period 2020 to 2024 median nominal household disposable income increased by 27.0%, while after adjusting for inflation real median household disposable income increased by 8.6% over the period. See figure 2.1 and tables 2.1a & 2.1c.

Real median household disposable income


2021 = 50,074
2022 = 51,120
2023 = 50,162
2024 = 50,406

Three years leads to less than 1% growth, that is poor.

 

[Marsupial]

The other point is that the Government rolled out expensive cost of living measures in Budgets, to mitigate the effects of the increases in the cost of living.
If there wasn't a cost of living crisis, why did they do that?

And, if the cost of living crisis isn't over, then why did they stop?

 

[Purple]

And, if the cost of living crisis isn't over, then why did they stop?

Because maybe the facts support the proposition that there is no cost of living crisis for majority of people in Ireland and targeting supports for those who actually need them is a better, more just and more cost effective use of public money.