Independent review body - Public Sector working hours.

Deiseblue

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808
Again, it should also be borne in mind that PS employees received decreases of between 7.4 % and 6.2 % between 2013 and 2018 reflecting the imposition of pay reductions across all grades. See the difference in the two statements when only one side of the story is reported.

Public sector is hiring if the private sector people think it's so good a job and conditions.
That's why I referred to the fact that those figures reflected a reversal of pay reductions previously inflicted.
 

cremeegg

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3,676
The public sector got 1% last year and 1% in October 2022. To be fair I suppose, inflation is 5.7% at the moment. Even if that comes down to say 3% for the rest of the year, salaries in the public sector are in reality falling in real terms.

I don't know what the pay rises forecasted in the private sector for 2023 are. I suppose every sector or Industry is different
You forget the increments, I am getting 9% more than 2 years ago
 

Purple

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I thought I read a figure of €180 million in the Examiner and the Independent. Did you see it costing a billion?
€180 million a year multiplied by 5.55 is €1 billion.
The cost is a cost every year, not just in the first year. Benchmarking has probably cost €20 billion by now.

Edit, as @Deiseblue points out the cost per full year is €360 million. That's a billion every 3 years.
 

Purple

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For PS workers at the top of their scales, they don't get any increments. In most grades, increments are only worth a few hundred a year and in teaching there's something like 25 increments, again, each worth 300-400 euro a year. With Inflation at 5.7%, they certainly are not keeping up with inflation.
Senior PS Employees are under paid. Junior PS employees are over paid. That's by international comparison.

Wage increases is a major driver of inflation so giving 30% plus of the workforce a pay rise will definitely increase inflation.
 

Baby boomer

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546
At the risk of been eaten alive, I would try and make two balanced comments:

1. The extra hours was done as a punitive kind of thing and seemed to be driven by some need to placate non-PS workers who had suffered in the recession after GFC.

2. Many (not all) public servants totally take the proverbial when it comes to flexi. Arriving at 7.30 and/or staying late when there's no work to be done, and building up valuable "flexidays" which are additional leave days. It used to be 1.5 days per month, I think there's been a reduction, is it 1 day per month now?

With a bit of give and take, there could be a win-win all round on hours. Give back the hours but cut out the abuse of Flexi.
 

Purple

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At the risk of been eaten alive, I would try and make two balanced comments:

1. The extra hours was done as a punitive kind of thing and seemed to be driven by some need to placate non-PS workers who had suffered in the recession after GFC.
I think it was more to do with their employer being bankrupt and borrowing the money to pay their wages.
2. Many (not all) public servants totally take the proverbial when it comes to flexi. Arriving at 7.30 and/or staying late when there's no work to be done, and building up valuable "flexidays" which are additional leave days. It used to be 1.5 days per month, I think there's been a reduction, is it 1 day per month now?

With a bit of give and take, there could be a win-win all round on hours. Give back the hours but cut out the abuse of Flexi.
That sounds fair.
 

Peanuts20

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431
It does annoy me as a Private Sector manager and employee that increments get overlooked when the Public Sector pay discussions are raised. Those are payrises, pure and simple.

And yes, I know they took a pay cut but so did many in the Private Sector and indeed many of those actually took a 100% paycut when they lost their jobs.

And yes, I know some of them are at the top of their scale and their salary is not keeping up with inflation. Welcome to the world many of us in the Private Sector endured for the last 10 years where increments/payrises and anything else were non existant.

There is no doubt many in the Public Sector are underpaid for what they do but there are far too many who are overpaid as well and a properly managed HR and management system which properly weeded out poor/non performers or just those who are a waste of space would be a major step forward. Indeed, many of those who I know who work in the Public Sector could list out their colleagues who are little more then passengers that they'd love to see the back of.

Having said that, and having had exposure to the Public sector as a supplier,, I wouldn't work in that area no matter what the money was like, just wouldn't have the patience to deal with the nonsense.
 

Purple

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There is no doubt many in the Public Sector are underpaid for what they do but there are far too many who are overpaid as well and a properly managed HR and management system which properly weeded out poor/non performers or just those who are a waste of space would be a major step forward. Indeed, many of those who I know who work in the Public Sector could list out their colleagues who are little more then passengers that they'd love to see the back of.

Having said that, and having had exposure to the Public sector as a supplier,, I wouldn't work in that area no matter what the money was like, just wouldn't have the patience to deal with the nonsense.
I think there's way too much emphasis on what State employees get paid. The discussion should be about the structures they work in, the processes that could be streamlines, the sharing of services to remove duplication and the entire structure the State used to deliver services.

As a manager there is no limit to the wage I'd pay someone. What is important is the value they bring for the wage they get. It should also be remembered that a person is never efficient or inefficient. It is the process which is efficient or inefficient. The person can be hard working or not, slow or fast, etc but if they are carrying out a task that adds no value or could be done better/faster by using a different method then the are working inefficiently inefficient.

Using a fork to eat soup is inefficient. It doesn't matter how good you are at it or if you are so good at it that you can eat soup with a fork faster than the guy with the spoon, by using a fork you are being inefficient.
If you are processing payrolls and there are 50 grades and ranks when there could be 20 it is inherently inefficient.
If you are admitting a patient to a hospital and you are filling in paperwork, entering data and printing sheet of labels for patient files when the whole thing could be done with the swipe of a card or a national patient identification number then the process is inefficient.
What people get paid for working in inefficient systems is secondary to the inherent problem of the systems themselves.
Given the tens of billions paid to State Employees €300 odd million is of little consequence. A 2% increase in productivity would more than pay for it.
 

RetirementPlan

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313
Again, it should also be borne in mind that PS employees received decreases of between 7.4 % and 6.2 % between 2013 and 2018 reflecting the imposition of pay reductions across all grades. See the difference in the two statements when only one side of the story is reported.

Public sector is hiring if the private sector people think it's so good a job and conditions.
It should also be borne in mind that the pension levy/ASC cut of 6-8% is still in place, and reversal hasn't even been discussed.
 

Protocol

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3,568
Again, it should also be borne in mind that PS employees received decreases of between 7.4 % and 6.2 % between 2013 and 2018 reflecting the imposition of pay reductions across all grades. See the difference in the two statements when only one side of the story is reported.

Public sector is hiring if the private sector people think it's so good a job and conditions.

There were up to four pay cuts.

(1) general pay cut for everybody, graduated
(2) PRD for all staff (lower net wage, no change in pension benefits)
(3) 10% pay cut off the starting wage, but only for new entrants
(4) Haddington Road agreement cut for staff on over 65k
 

Purple

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It should also be borne in mind that the pension levy/ASC cut of 6-8% is still in place, and reversal hasn't even been discussed.
I always thought a pay cut of a bit less than that amount instead of a levy would have been fairer as it would also have reduced pension payments to retired PS employees who are generally wealthier with less debt and far fewer overheads. It is grossly unfair that new entrants on lower wages and less attractive pensions were paying levy to fund pensions of retirees who had enjoyed much better pay, conditions and pensions.

Retired PS employees were generally far less qualified than new entrants and were employed in the public sector in the 70's and 80's which was the high watermark for doing bugger all and generally skiving off in the State sector. They were also the people running the departments and advising the Ministers when the country was driven off a cliff. It's weird that they suffered the least pain of anyone in the State sector.
 

Protocol

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By levy, do you mean the PRD?

That has been renamed the ASC, and it has been reversed, somewhat.
 

Protocol

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Here are the ASC rates.

Rate 1 refers to PS who are a member of the new Single PS pension scheme.

Rate 2 is for members of pre-existing schemes.

Main Employer Thresholds & Rates 2020 & 2021​

Annual Threshold Monthly Threshold Weekly Threshold Rate 1Rate 2
First €34,500 First €2,875First €663.460%0%
Next €25,500Next €2,125Next €490.383.33%10.0%
Over €60,000Over €5,000 Over €1,153.843.5%10.5%


Note, of course, that these Additional Conts are after the normal 6.5% pension contribution.
 
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