Implications of SF in government for landlords

odyssey06

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High rents are a signal to people to start building new dwellings.
High rents also encourage more efficient use of the inadequate amount of dwellings that we have in the high demand areas.
There's just not enough dwellings and if we didn't have the high rents encouraging more sharing \ rent a rooms \ people taking smaller properties then people are maybe going to be paying less rent but commuting from much further out.
 

Metatron

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I would surmise that Sinn Fein will target REIT’s ICAV’s and vulture funds that have engineered structures where they pay little or no tax on rental income, no capital gain tax, no capital acquisition tax, basically NO TAX. The other unfortunate and sometimes accidental landlords are stuck paying 40% tax on their rental income, with ever increasing regulation.

I am quite surprised that one of these type of landlords have not sued the State for illegal state aid of these funds.
 

The Horseman

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338
I am neither a tenant nor a landlord, so excuse my ignorance, but how can landlords justify that the cost of rent is acceptable? Where I live, the rent for 3 bed semis is around €2,500 a month. It is simply not feasible that this can continue. People can't afford these high rents and on top of that, the uncertainty as to whether the rents will increase. The ordinary person should not be penalised because they are simply trying to survive in a world where landlords have been wealthy enough to be able to buy investment properties and charge extortionate rent.
Remember in the majority of cases the landlord is also the "ordinary person" you know the plumber, electrician, taxi driver those self employed people who invested in property as a pension.
 

Sarenco

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The Sinn Fein Rent Freeze Bill (which passed to the second stage in the Dail before Christmas) provides that new tenancies will be set according to the Residential Tenancies Board rent index for equivalent properties within that local electoral area.

If existing tenancies could be "reset" to market levels on a similar basis, I suspect a lot of landlords would be happy enough to stay in the rental game - even if restricted from increasing rents over the following three years.

However, freezing rents on existing tenancies at below market levels is definitely going to prompt another exodus of landlords from the market.
 

NoRegretsCoyote

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The Sinn Fein Rent Freeze Bill (which passed to the second stage in the Dail before Christmas) provides that new tenancies will be set according to the Residential Tenancies Board rent index for equivalent properties within that local electoral area.
It's a side issue, but this is pretty unworkable. It is very difficult to define an equivalent property.

Location within an LEA or state of repair (for the same sqm) can see prices vary +-20% from average.
 

Purple

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Agree fully, but imagine trying to sell a house with a tenant in situ who has chosen to stop paying their rent?
Great way of buying a house; move in as a tenant and then stop paying the rent. The landlord can't evict you so has to sell it to you at a massive discount.
 

fidelcastro

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128
Everything in context.

Is 2,500 a month a disgrace on a house with a market value of 600k+? Or 500k+? At what point does it become 'a disgrace'?

For the record, I'm not a landlord, not would I become one in the current environment.
I think the situation of extremely high rents, high selling prices for houses, high wages and taxes is unsustainable and will end in tears. Remember, Dublin is not London or Munich, Amsterdam, or Milan. One day, when the large MMC companies have left, the top 10 who pay 5Billion in corporation taxes, we'll remember how great it was to have decent paid jobs and housing, and how we killed the golden goose.

Brexit + next recession + 200billion Govt dept + extremely unstable housing + wages = Disaster in waiting.
 

Sanparom

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The issue is a supply side problem. Messing in the market will result in less landlords, less properties available for people and less supply. This will mean greater demand and drive rent prices higher again.

A rent freeze will protect renters in houses now, but what about new renters, people moving to dublin to start working, where will they go? There simply won't be any properties for them to rent or move into. This will hit employment and slow investment. When that happens, it doesn't matter about anything else. It's the economy stupid. If the economy isn't going well, there's no money to do anything. Period.

Landlords charging €2,500 a month for a three bed-semi is a disgrace and I say that as a landlord. Accidential one at that in negative equity. Who decides what is a fair rent to charge? If the government decides, do you not think that private owners and investors will up sticks immediately and leave for fear of interference, state control etc? Of course they will.

Due to a tax change on rental income some years ago (all liable for PRSI and USC) rent per month had to increase by 22% just for landlords to be left with the same money as before this tax change. Rather than the government penalising and hitting landlords consistently with red tape, legislation, rent freezes and making them out to the villian, why doesn't the government reverse the decision to make rental income liable to PRSI and USC and in return get landlords to reduce rents by 20%. Landlords are left with the same money, renters get a 20% reduction instead of the 1500 euro or (maximum of 8.5% reduction as per Sinn Fein manifesto) and that's real action there. But they won't. They will hit landlords and drive more out of the market.
Firstly, I don't appreciate being called stupid.

Secondly, there is a massive amount of people out there who are being forced to rent (for various reasons) but cannot afford the high rents and even if they're paying them, are probably living off beans on toast otherwise. Landlords themselves usually have their own homes and are not familiar with being in this situation and living through this hell. Granted, I am not a tenant myself, but I know people who are and it is extremely difficult. Where is the solution that suits everyone? There doesn't seem to be one, so what will it come down to - prioritising tenants over landlords or vice versa? Something has to give.
 

Sanparom

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Remember in the majority of cases the landlord is also the "ordinary person" you know the plumber, electrician, taxi driver those self employed people who invested in property as a pension.
Remember that a lot of tenants don't have any investments or security towards their pension.

I suppose I should be shocked that so many people on this thread seem oblivious to the plight of the tenant, but then I need to remind myself that I am in a place where a lot of people have a lot of money invested in property, stocks, shares and whatever else takes your fancy. It's very hard to understand something of which you have no personal experience.
 

odyssey06

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Remember that a lot of tenants don't have any investments or security towards their pension.
I suppose I should be shocked that so many people on this thread seem oblivious to the plight of the tenant, but then I need to remind myself that I am in a place where a lot of people have a lot of money invested in property, stocks, shares and whatever else takes your fancy. It's very hard to understand something of which you have no personal experience.
We're not oblivious to the plight of the tenant. But the real problem is the lack of housing. The high rents are a symptom of that not a cause.
Lower rents would just exacerbate that as has been proven in city after city.
You are also prioritising existing tenants over future tenants. Freezing rents now will mean less rental properties in future, and people will use the existing properties less efficiently - why take in another housemate, why not stay somewhere bigger than you need if the rent's been frozen and locked into a below market rate.
 

Sanparom

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We're not oblivious to the plight of the tenant. But the real problem is the lack of housing. The high rents are a symptom of that not a cause.
Lower rents would just exacerbate that as has been proven in city after city.
You are also prioritising existing tenants over future tenants. Freezing rents now will mean less rental properties in future, and people will use the existing properties less efficiently - why take in another housemate, why not stay somewhere bigger than you need if the rent's been frozen and locked into a below market rate.
I understand. What is the solution? Build more houses and keep rent prices as they are in the interim? And how long would that take?

The whole bloody thing is a mess.
 

The Horseman

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I understand. What is the solution? Build more houses and keep rent prices as they are in the interim? And how long would that take?

The whole bloody thing is a mess.
Common sense would suggest you don't drive landlords out of the market without other alternatives to house those currently renting from the landlords.
 

odyssey06

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2,399
I understand. What is the solution? Build more houses and keep rent prices as they are in the interim? And how long would that take?
The whole bloody thing is a mess.
Yes it's a mess. There's a sick patient and there is only really one medicine that will cure it.
Everything else like rent freezes is just treating the symptoms and displacing the side effects.
 
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