Implication of Ulster Bank tracker fine for Ombudsman decisions

SaySomething

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Having had a day to think things over I do wonder if this will have an impact on cases currently before the FSPO. Up until yesterday the bank used the 'administrative error' narrative to explain a lot of failings for tracker customers. It's clear from the Central Bank ruling that it was more than this. Will that make a difference to the Ombudsman's findings in future?
 

SaySomething

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I have to be careful here because we are in the middle of FSPO complaint with Ulster Bank over the tracker mortgage issue (we have not yet reached adjudication stage).

On more than one occasion during the complaints/appeals process certain issues we raised were dismissed as administrative errors. They were dismissed at internal complaints stage and subsequently the Independent Appeals Panel supported this assumption. These issues are ones that the Central Bank highlighted yesterday as not being administrative errors. The bank has fought us at every stage when we raised these issues. I will be interested to see if the bank backs down and admits they are not.

I do suspect however, that given the strongly worded statement in the FSPO annual report, that they will not back down and we will have to refer to the Central Bank's own report to rebut their argument.

Either way it's going to be an interesting journey to finally bring our complaint to a conclusion.
 

notabene

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383
I have to be careful here because we are in the middle of FSPO complaint with Ulster Bank over the tracker mortgage issue (we have not yet reached adjudication stage).

On more than one occasion during the complaints/appeals process certain issues we raised were dismissed as administrative errors. They were dismissed at internal complaints stage and subsequently the Independent Appeals Panel supported this assumption. These issues are ones that the Central Bank highlighted yesterday as not being administrative errors. The bank has fought us at every stage when we raised these issues. I will be interested to see if the bank backs down and admits they are not.

I do suspect however, that given the strongly worded statement in the FSPO annual report, that they will not back down and we will have to refer to the Central Bank's own report to rebut their argument.

Either way it's going to be an interesting journey to finally bring our complaint to a conclusion.
I think you're right I don't think they will, but I do think as you've said there it is evidence for you to use against them - I really hope that this is all well timed & helps your case with the FSPO
 

UB_TME

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I don’t think anything has (or will) change in relation to how they handle the complaints with FSPO. Their processes seem entrenched in just rebutting everything in a vague way. I suppose it can’t hurt that we can refer to the CB report\fine during the process but I think the FSPO can only look at what’s in front of him in black and white and make decisions case by case. Hopefully it may help sway his thinking if there are cases hard to decide on, where he may be able to say “well, you have history of...”. Not sure it will, or can, happen like that though...
 

SaySomething

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I don’t think anything has (or will) change in relation to how they handle the complaints with FSPO. Their processes seem entrenched in just rebutting everything in a vague way. I suppose it can’t hurt that we can refer to the CB report\fine during the process but I think the FSPO can only look at what’s in front of him in black and white and make decisions case by case. Hopefully it may help sway his thinking if there are cases hard to decide on, where he may be able to say “well, you have history of...”. Not sure it will, or can, happen like that though...
Providing any customer has a complaint with the FSPO that has not yet proceeded to adjudication they should be able to:
  • Review the Central Bank statement.
  • See if any of their complaints match the items raised by the Central Bank.
  • Make a list of the times where the bank breached the regulations on their personal accounts as set out by the Central Bank.
  • Submit this list as additional information for inclusion in the Summary Complaint.
For many customers who have proceeded to FSPO with a complaint it's to appeal the level of compensation received as part of the Tracker Mortgage Examination. However, those customers will know that the Bank not only fight the level of compensation received but often the fact that the Bank was wrong in the first place.

So the Central Bank statement on Thursday is good news because you should be able to say that the Central Bank ruled that the Bank was wrong to behave in this way and therefore you're not going to enter into the discussions with the Bank about certain matters.

I hope that makes sense!
 

UB_TME

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Makes sense SaySomething and I hope that's the way it goes but the pessimist in me thinks Ulsterbank may even be more reluctant to put more mortgages back on to tracker rates (even despite the fine) due to the fact that they will be looking to sell their loan books. I'm no expert but from reading articles about the sale of the loan book PTSB, AIB or whoever are interested in performing loans\mortgages but no-one is talking about taking tracker mortgages. The below is from an Irish Times article from today. I suppose time will tell. (A lot of time ;)).

"But as AIB and Permanent TSB prepare to take on much of Ulster Bank’s €20 billion remaining loan book, it’s unlikely anyone will want to go near one particular portfolio: its low-profit €6.8 million tracker book."
 

SaySomething

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Makes sense SaySomething and I hope that's the way it goes but the pessimist in me thinks Ulsterbank may even be more reluctant to put more mortgages back on to tracker rates (even despite the fine) due to the fact that they will be looking to sell their loan books. I'm no expert but from reading articles about the sale of the loan book PTSB, AIB or whoever are interested in performing loans\mortgages but no-one is talking about taking tracker mortgages. The below is from an Irish Times article from today. I suppose time will tell. (A lot of time ;)).

"But as AIB and Permanent TSB prepare to take on much of Ulster Bank’s €20 billion remaining loan book, it’s unlikely anyone will want to go near one particular portfolio: its low-profit €6.8 million tracker book."
I'm already back on my tracker rate so my complaints with the Ombudsman are related to the level of compensation we received and other account management issues.
 

RedOnion

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I'm no expert but from reading articles about the sale of the loan book PTSB, AIB or whoever are interested in performing loans\mortgages but no-one is talking about taking tracker mortgages. The below is from an Irish Times article from today
Just remember anything you see / hear / read in relation to UB loan sales is at best speculation at the moment.

Other banks that have exited the market had no issues in selling tracker mortgages. The margin is reflected in the sales price achieved, and everything will eventually be sold.

If UB sell mortgages, not on trackers, they'll have to include 'reps & warranties' that mean they'll pay financial compensation if the customer has to be put back onto a tracker later, so there shouldn't be any benefit in them refusing to put customers who are entitled back onto trackers just to sell them.
 

Brendan Burgess

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it’s unlikely anyone will want to go near one particular portfolio: its low-profit €6.8 million tracker book."

This is wrong.

If Ulster Bank is selling €100m par value of performing home loans which are on market rates, BoI or permanent tsb would be prepared to pay €100m for them.

If Ulster Bank is selling €100m par value of performing tracker home loans, BoI and permanent tsb should be very interested, but it's just that they will probably offer only €90m for them.

Brendan
 

Banquo

Registered User
Messages
52
Providing any customer has a complaint with the FSPO that has not yet proceeded to adjudication they should be able to:
  • Review the Central Bank statement.
  • See if any of their complaints match the items raised by the Central Bank.
  • Make a list of the times where the bank breached the regulations on their personal accounts as set out by the Central Bank.
  • Submit this list as additional information for inclusion in the Summary Complaint.
For many customers who have proceeded to FSPO with a complaint it's to appeal the level of compensation received as part of the Tracker Mortgage Examination. However, those customers will know that the Bank not only fight the level of compensation received but often the fact that the Bank was wrong in the first place.

So the Central Bank statement on Thursday is good news because you should be able to say that the Central Bank ruled that the Bank was wrong to behave in this way and therefore you're not going to enter into the discussions with the Bank about certain matters.

I hope that makes sense!
Could you explain the last part of your synopsis above - I am in the same position appealing level of compensation - thanks
 

SaySomething

Registered User
Messages
590
@Banquo say you complain that you requested your tracker bank in 2012 but you didn't receive it. You are claiming additional compensation for the bank's delay in returning your tracker. The bank says your request was not processed due to an administrative error/issue. You now can say that according to the Central Bank the bank had a deliberate policy of refusing return to tracker rate for customers unless they complained in a certain format.
 
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