The CSO report itself is not flawed, just as the ESRI report itself is not flawed. They both do indeed show that on average, public sector staff are paid more than private sector staff.
On average, aeroplanes cost more than bicycles. On average, a flight to America costs more than a flight to Kerry. On average, a television costs more than a chocolate bar.
Comparing averages is fairly meangingless. The public sector does not have large numbers of shop floor workers, or shop workers, or bar/waiting staff. Staff qualifications in the public sector are much higher on average, than the private sector.
So these reports are comparing apples with oranges.
The CSO report itself is not flawed, just as the ESRI report itself is not flawed. They both do indeed show that on average, public sector staff are paid more than private sector staff.
On average, aeroplanes cost more than bicycles. On average, a flight to America costs more than a flight to Kerry. On average, a television costs more than a chocolate bar.
Comparing averages is fairly meangingless. The public sector does not have large numbers of shop floor workers, or shop workers, or bar/waiting staff. Staff qualifications in the public sector are much higher on average, than the private sector.
So these reports are comparing apples with oranges.
Comparing averages is fairly meangingless. The public sector does not have large numbers of shop floor workers, or shop workers, or bar/waiting staff. Staff qualifications in the public sector are much higher on average, than the private sector.
So these reports are comparing apples with oranges.
I've read both reports, thanks. I'm not a statistician and admit to struggling with some of the trickier statistical stuff, but regardless, I can read enough to see what both reports are based on, and more importantly, what they are not based on. They are not based on any analysis of job content.Seriously read the reports and stop spouting rubbish. You yourself admit that the CSO have the best statisticians. The ESRI are not exactly fools either. Do you think they don't recognise the differences between the two sectors and adjust their findings as best they can. The CSO adjusted their gap down from over 30% to below 20% to take account of the various differences such as education between the two sectors. Just because they use averages doesn't make the figures meaningless. These guys are not using simple models done on the back of envelopes. Nobody is suggesting that these models are 100% accurate but they all come to the same general conclusion.
I can only assume that you haven't looked at the CSO report. It is quarterly, and it also requires CEOs/CFOs to give precise information. It may not ask all the same questions as IBEC, but it is far more rigourous (including statutory penalties for non-cooperation) and independent than anything IBEC produce.The point was there are other reports out there showing the true picture for the private sector. The CSO report has limitations in the data it asks for. On the basis of what the CSO don't ask, then yes for that area the IBEC reports do have more weight because:
1. It addresses a huge gap in the CSO survey
2. It is Quarterly and more up-to-date
3. Its responses are from CFO/CEOs giving precise payroll and other information affecting their organisations.
Your suggestion (again without any actual look at or reading of the report) that the data is irrelevant and possibly even biased/inaccurate just because it has come from IBEC's members.
It is not foolish to point out the CSO survey is limited to certain areas and that this report expands on where the CSO remit is limited. For you this might be too huge a leap, especially when you haven't read the reports, however, it is a quarterly report that does have credence.
I'm not sure that I agree with the approach of minimum wage as being the target for entry level staff, but regardless, wouldn't it be nice to see a comparison based on the job content?No arguement with this in certain areas, eg, medical staff. However, a lot of public sector jobs are mundane repetitive tasks where an individual has to work to basic procedures and which are no more difficult then working on a shop floor where an individual would normally only be paid minimum wage. The starting salary in one country council for a clerical officer is €23232 which is ballpark 25% above the minimum wage, yet I'd question if the complexity of much of their roles warrents that
Great line - I look forward to using it soon.You forgot that the average person has one breast and one testicle too.
But that is not how they are being used. They are being used here on AAM and in the media at large to fuel the public vs private 'divide and conquer' tactic that the Govt are playing. So don't be surprised when I and others seek to clarify the context and content of these reports every time they are used in evidence.For all the problems with "averages" they are a necessary evil in establishing a baseline.
Again though the ultimate question is how with all these suddenly irreconcilable differences comparing public to private we managed to run the benchmarking system that shifted pay upwards for so many years?
They are being used here on AAM and in the media at large to fuel the public vs private 'divide and conquer' tactic that the Govt are playing. So don't be surprised when I and others seek to clarify the context and content of these reports every time they are used in evidence.
So you are suggesting that the CSO made such a fundamental error in their analysis that they neglected to check that the two distributions were based on similar data?Comparing averages is fairly meangingless. The public sector does not have large numbers of shop floor workers, or shop workers, or bar/waiting staff. Staff qualifications in the public sector are much higher on average, than the private sector.
I can only assume that you haven't looked at the CSO report. It is quarterly, and it also requires CEOs/CFOs to give precise information. It may not ask all the same questions as IBEC, but it is far more rigourous (including statutory penalties for non-cooperation) and independent than anything IBEC produce.
We don't know, because of couse the benchmarking process was confidential. But possibly, the key difference between bechmarking and the ESRI/CSO tsunami is that benchmarking did exactly what I pointed out that the ESRI/CSO did not - it looked at the actual content of the job and came to view on that.
But that is not how they are being used. They are being used here on AAM and in the media at large to fuel the public vs private 'divide and conquer' tactic that the Govt are playing. So don't be surprised when I and others seek to clarify the context and content of these reports every time they are used in evidence.
Nobody in the public sector was complaining about the accuracy of the findings/comparisons/weightings when they suggested a pay RISE back when we could afford it !
Cherry picking the details to agree with when it suits and disagree with when it doesn't suit. Brilliant strategy.
I've no idea whether they checked it or not. That doesn't change the facts. The facts are that the public sector and the private sector was very different.So you are suggesting that the CSO made such a fundamental error in their analysis that they neglected to check that the two distributions were based on similar data?
So if you had looked at the CSO stuff, why did you repeatedly highlight the fact that the IBEC one was quarterly as a major benefit?Nope, I have looked and it was a poor effort to show that they actually share the same statistical bases and methodology. The key difference is that the CSO ones are quite some way behind once published. And in reality your only reason for rejecting the IBEC report is because of the authors rather than any actual proof that it is biased. It doesn't contradict the CSO reports, it just goes further than simply basic pay levels.
Rubbish. All the information exists in the public sector, in terms of job descriptions and PMDS objectives. The problem is that no-one is looking at this stuff. Yes, this kind of comparision would be very difficult and time-consuming. But it is the only kind of comparison that is valid.Here's the root of the problem, whether with the media, the ESRI or anything else: we don't know. The frustration for the ESRI and the need to make adjustments is that there is no clear description of roles and tasks. In effect we just don't know what some parts of the Public Service do on an hour-by-hour, day-by-day, etc basis. This makes the comparisson difficult, but that's hardly the fault of the ESRI.
While the benchmarking process was confidential, if there was any clear criteria it would be available to the ESRI and it would be available through an FOI request. The problem is it just doesn't exist, or at least doesn't appear to exist.
You might want to go back and read what I actually said about benchmarking and then see if you really need to ask this question.However, if benchmarking was so confidential how can you be so sure it did compare like-with-like?
The cut in promotions is nothing to do with the model chosen. The number of posts is nothing to do with the method used to fill those posts. This is another red herring.Just like this morning and the Teacher's union stating "slashing of promotion opportunities" as a "loss" to pay incurred in their profession. They mention nothing of the skew in numbers of higher grades in teaching nor that the cut in promotions was on the basis of a far more reasonable model, i.e. promotion based on performance and merit and not service. The media missed this one.
Yep, agreed. I'll accept this too, provided that it is done properly, thoroughly, and there is a committment to revisit it at regular intervals, say every 2 years.If the benchmarking process was so correct and the current analysis so wrong, lets do another benchmarking process in open instead of behind closed doors. I will accept their results.
Again though the ultimate question is how with all these suddenly irreconcilable differences comparing public to private we managed to run the benchmarking system that shifted pay upwards for so many years?
So if you had looked at the CSO stuff, why did you repeatedly highlight the fact that the IBEC one was quarterly as a major benefit?
As an aside, the time taken to publish the CSO one in indicitive of the quality of the end of result, unlike the IBEC stuff.
Rubbish. All the information exists in the public sector, in terms of job descriptions and PMDS objectives. The problem is that no-one is looking at this stuff. Yes, this kind of comparision would be very difficult and time-consuming. But it is the only kind of comparison that is valid.
The cut in promotions is nothing to do with the model chosen. The number of posts is nothing to do with the method used to fill those posts. This is another red herring.
This isn't a data problem. The problem is the complexity of the comparison involved. Job descriptions don't fit into nice neat categories that can be structured in a database. Also, job descriptions vary widely across the public sector - the role of a CO in a HSE health centre is very different to a CO in a central Govt dept or a CO in a local authority call centre.It may well do, but the question has to be why the CSO, ESRI and any other data collection means doesn't get it and has to try to make adjustments and estimates. If it were as simple as making a phone call or a couple of emails do you not think they would have done this?
There is a huge gap in the data available.
I went off it the day it was published.I'm going off the McCarthy report
This isn't a data problem. The problem is the complexity of the comparison involved. Job descriptions don't fit into nice neat categories that can be structured in a database. Also, job descriptions vary widely across the public sector - the role of a CO in a HSE health centre is very different to a CO in a central Govt dept or a CO in a local authority call centre.
The differences get even bigger as you go up the levels.
I have just watched Jack O'Connor with Pat Kenny on Frontline and what a grilling he got on the ten point plan. At times Jack looked foolish as Pat Kenny, McDowell and the Tax Lawyer tore him apart.
Ictu has now upped the ante from 5 demands to a 10 point recovery plan
[broken link removed]
I only disagree with the “at times” bit.
There are way better, more intelligent and more articulate union officials. Why do they let Jack out in public. At least some of the other Brethren have the smarts to bluster and waffle enough to hide the fact that their economic policies are utterly stupid. Jack just sits there, completely out of his depth, repeating the same banal lines in his bland and deadpan way. If his foolishness didn’t have the potential to do so much damage to the country he’d put me to sleep.
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