ICF (Insulated Concrete Forms) using Reward Structures. - Is this an expensive quote?

[sas]

Re: ICF (Insulated Concrete Forms) using Reward Structures. - Is this an expensive qu

Thankfully a consumer can now get a bigger bang for his buck.
sabre

Something we can both agree on.

As an update, my reward quote for 0.21 u-value was 43k for the external walls as I've stated earlier. The Eurozone quote arrived and its 71k for a 0.15 u-value for the same external walls. The funny thing on this one is that the supply only price for Eurozone was half their price. The supply only option from Reward was 3/4 their price. How could the same amount of concrete and less labour for the Eurozone system mean such a big difference in the labour quote?

Based on some initial numbers I've run it would appear a 0.15 u-value is now achieved in the cheapest way using a single leaf of 4 inch solids on the flat externally insulated with 230mm of STOs EPS external insulation system (i.e. STO classic). This is based on a ball park figure from STO of €100 per metres squared + VAT for the 230mm.

 

[sabre]

Re: ICF (Insulated Concrete Forms) using Reward Structures. - Is this an expensive qu

Something we can both agree on.

As an update, my reward quote for 0.21 u-value was 43k for the external walls as I've stated earlier. The Eurozone quote arrived and its 71k for a 0.15 u-value for the same external walls. The funny thing on this one is that the supply only price for Eurozone was half their price. The supply only option from Reward was 3/4 their price. How could the same amount of concrete and less labour for the Eurozone system mean such a big difference in the labour quot.

Maybe the variation in labour rates arises if one company is using their own labour, and the other one is using a sub contractors rate. I have seen the same issues when pricing for icf before.

sabre

 

[BarneyMc]

Re: ICF (Insulated Concrete Forms) using Reward Structures. - Is this an expensive qu

Based on some initial numbers I've run it would appear a 0.15 u-value is now achieved in the cheapest way using a single leaf of 4 inch solids on the flat externally insulated with 230mm of STOs EPS external insulation system (i.e. STO classic). This is based on a ball park figure from STO of €100 per metres squared + VAT for the 230mm.

I've looked up STO and they seem to be a US based company? Have they a distributor here or does another company here use their products? Is this supply only? Also what's the internal insulation tickness? Thanks!

 

[sas]

Re: ICF (Insulated Concrete Forms) using Reward Structures. - Is this an expensive qu

I've looked up STO and they seem to be a US based company? Have they a distributor here or does another company here use their products? Is this supply only? Also what's the internal insulation tickness? Thanks!

The products name is actually StoTherm Classic
100 + VAT per metre squared is for supply and fit and render.
It's not ICF, it's an external insulation system i.e. no internal insulation

 

[sabre]

Re: ICF (Insulated Concrete Forms) using Reward Structures. - Is this an expensive qu

Another externally insulated supplier, might be useful as an indicator for pricing. I see now that m2 are supplying panels for this purpose for the UK market. This is a recent development , as I was present at the early meetings with the representatives of the Irish and UK end , and both gentlemen were extremely knowledgable and professional in their approach .

Please ...no more remarks about touting for M2....I am relaying pertinent information on the topic, as I have it. What you do with it is up to you.


[broken link removed]

sabre.

 

[GalwayRon]

Re: ICF (Insulated Concrete Forms) using Reward Structures. - Is this an expensive qu

I'm just finishing my ICF house. Used Eurozone ICF based in Enniscorthy. Full height panels, made in Ireland. They also make Internal walls, floors and roof panels.

 

[abbeyross]

Re: ICF (Insulated Concrete Forms) using Reward Structures. - Is this an expensive qu

We are half way through an ICF build but have not made a decision on a heating method for the house. We are told oil is the best option as we won't need a lot of heat, and any other methods such as geothermal, solar, etc. would be too costly and not cost effective.

Would love to hear what other ICF builders are putting in? It just seems a pity to be building an eco friendly -ish house only to put in a conventional oil boiler....

 

[sydthebeat]

Re: ICF (Insulated Concrete Forms) using Reward Structures. - Is this an expensive qu

"we are told"...??? ... by whom??? educated professionals??
The one guarantee is that oil and gas (and electricity) will rise sharply in price in the future.... you if you do incorporate an oil burner, then factor in teh costs to convert it in the future???

What about wood pellets burners, or wood gasification burners???

Geothermal is still probably too expensive to warrant its inclusion as it is still electrically powered....

Solar would be fine is its a large enough system, but you would probably need a back up 'booster' heating system for winter months.

 

[GalwayRon]

Re: ICF (Insulated Concrete Forms) using Reward Structures. - Is this an expensive qu

I'm going for an Air thermal heat pump and underfloor heating. Also, solar vac-tubes for domestic hot water. The heatpump is very efficient (Mitsubishi Ecodan) compact. Plus there is no expensive installation as with geothermal.

 

[BarneyMc]

Re: ICF (Insulated Concrete Forms) using Reward Structures. - Is this an expensive qu

I'm going for an Air thermal heat pump and underfloor heating.

Hi Ron, Is the air thermal heat pump the source of heat for the underfloor heating system? If not I think the heated aire can be put through the heat ventilation recovery system. Perhaps this would be more efficient? Also assuming the house is very easy to heat, is underfloor heating a bit of overkill?

 

[sydthebeat]

Re: ICF (Insulated Concrete Forms) using Reward Structures. - Is this an expensive qu

Hi Ron, Is the air thermal heat pump the source of heat for the underfloor heating system? If not I think the heated aire can be put through the heat ventilation recovery system. Perhaps this would be more efficient? Also assuming the house is very easy to heat, is underfloor heating a bit of overkill?

barney, the ATWHP would be the UFH heating source, it takes in slightly heated air from the external and uplifts it to UFH temps (~40deg). This is space heating so if a HRV system is used then it automaticaly will pass through the system.

Galwayron,
have you a secondary heating system to heat Domestic Hot Water??

is the system designed to make use of any solar gains to preheat the air for the ATWHP?? ie winter garden, greenhouse etc?? as you probably every deg of preheated air is precious for an ATWHP.....
you could exhaust the HRV into this space and, in theory have a 100% HRV system.... plus if you exhaust to a greenhouse, your metabolic co2 can directly be exchanged by plants into fresh o2 for the dwelling.....

just a thought....

 

[BarneyMc]

Re: ICF (Insulated Concrete Forms) using Reward Structures. - Is this an expensive qu

is the system designed to make use of any solar gains to preheat the air for the ATWHP?? ie winter garden, greenhouse etc?? as you probably every deg of preheated air is precious for an ATWHP.....
you could exhaust the HRV into this space and, in theory have a 100% HRV system.... plus if you exhaust to a greenhouse, your metabolic co2 can directly be exchanged by plants into fresh o2 for the dwelling.....

just a thought....

Syd, would this assume the plants could turn the Co2 into O2 quickly enough before that air is brought back into the house? Perhaps it would be better for the ATWHP to work from a greenhouse but to expell the air to outside? Interesting!!

 

[sydthebeat]

Re: ICF (Insulated Concrete Forms) using Reward Structures. - Is this an expensive qu

Syd, would this assume the plants could turn the Co2 into O2 quickly enough before that air is brought back into the house? Perhaps it would be better for the ATWHP to work from a greenhouse but to expell the air to outside? Interesting!!

Barney, the greenhouse would have be vented anyway.

The exhaust air from a ATWHP should definitely be exhausted to the external unless another use can be found for its very cold uses...??

A recent edition os the Architects jourbna;l have an article on a social housing development in Blackwater, cork, that used a winter garden to pre heat air before being used by an ATWHP. A very clever design IMHO.

 

[HAB]

Re: ICF (Insulated Concrete Forms) using Reward Structures. - Is this an expensive qu

Dear SAS

Nudura has a U value of .253 (R22.4/RSI 3.94) The U.11 is the value that you would have to construct a timberframe home to so that it can perform to the U.25 of an ICF, and these are numbers widely used in North America by all ICF's. Calling someone a liar without confronting the person who made the statement is a bit cowardly. As to the cost of the block, what has shipping from Canada got to do with it? Have you compared costs of various ICF's in various countries?

 

[sydthebeat]

Re: ICF (Insulated Concrete Forms) using Reward Structures. - Is this an expensive qu

Dear SAS

Nudura has a U value of .253 (R22.4/RSI 3.94) The U.11 is the value that you would have to construct a timberframe home to so that it can perform to the U.25 of an ICF, and these are numbers widely used in North America by all ICF's. Calling someone a liar without confronting the person who made the statement is a bit cowardly. As to the cost of the block, what has shipping from Canada got to do with it? Have you compared costs of various ICF's in various countries?

sorry HAB.... i dont know where you are getting your info, but its very incorrect. If you are a supplier / manufacturer of such a product then lets debate this with you, its good to have balanced debate.

a u value is a measure of a RATE of heat loss, regardless of the material

0.11 is a very good wall u value, regardless of material
0.25 is slightly better than minimum standards, regardless of material...

to try to equate 0.11 to 0.25 is simply incorrect

it like saying a porche travelling at 80 mph is slower than a merc travelling at 50 mph....... a rate is a rate, and thats what you have to compare....

for a company like nudura, or whoever else, to state that you need to build a timberframe to a u vlaue of 0.11 in order to be comparable to an ICF dwelling at 0.25 is completely incorrect, misleading and underhanded........ i would wholeheartedly agree with SAS that the word 'lie' is completely applicable.....

 

[sas]

Re: ICF (Insulated Concrete Forms) using Reward Structures. - Is this an expensive qu

Dear SAS

Nudura has a U value of .253 (R22.4/RSI 3.94) The U.11 is the value that you would have to construct a timberframe home to so that it can perform to the U.25 of an ICF, and these are numbers widely used in North America by all ICF's. Calling someone a liar without confronting the person who made the statement is a bit cowardly. As to the cost of the block, what has shipping from Canada got to do with it? Have you compared costs of various ICF's in various countries?

So HAB, let's clear this up to start with. What's your involvement with Nudura? How come Nudura is the only ICF system in this country that claims a "performance u-value"?

I would hardly describe a statement of fact as cowardly. As syd has kindly pointed out, u-value is u-value.

Shipping costs money, that what shipping has to do with it. The locally manufactured ones tend to be cheaper u-value for u-value because the shipping costs less. I don't need to compare prices of various ICFs in various countries, just this one. Nudura have one of the poorest u-values of the ICF systems available here. They are not the cheapest either. I've priced lots of the ICF systems available in Ireland from the same plans so that was my experience which is all I can comment from.

Welcome to AAM by the way.

 

[HAB]

Re: ICF (Insulated Concrete Forms) using Reward Structures. - Is this an expensive qu

The performance value I refer to is the conclusion of an analysis done by Construction Technology Laboratories of Skokie, Illinois for the ICFA Assoc in North America showing the steady-state thermal resistance(R-value) of a typical 9" ICF wall (2"eps-5"concrete-2"eps), in 38 North American cities, using the ASHRAE Handbook. Another reference is the study done by Brock University, supported by the National Research Council of Canada, that shows that a typical 2x6 stick frame home with R-20(U.28) values, at -10.5C performs at an equivalent value of R-4(U1.4) In my view, its all about how well a wall performs under thermal loading, thus for me anyways, stated values of wall assemblies can be misleading.

 

[sydthebeat]

Re: ICF (Insulated Concrete Forms) using Reward Structures. - Is this an expensive qu

The performance value I refer to is the conclusion of an analysis done by Construction Technology Laboratories of Skokie, Illinois for the ICFA Assoc in North America showing the steady-state thermal resistance(R-value) of a typical 9" ICF wall (2"eps-5"concrete-2"eps), in 38 North American cities, using the ASHRAE Handbook. Another reference is the study done by Brock University, supported by the National Research Council of Canada, that shows that a typical 2x6 stick frame home with R-20(U.28) values, at -10.5C performs at an equivalent value of R-4(U1.4) In my view, its all about how well a wall performs under thermal loading, thus for me anyways, stated values of wall assemblies can be misleading.

firstly, a typical 6 x 2 'stick frame' in Canada is not a typical timberframe in Ireland. we have different methods of testing to suit OUR climate, not the canadian situation.
secondly, any testing commisioned by a biased party, in this case the ICFA assoc... cannot be taken as independant confirmation.

we here do not recognise 'performance' u values (i dont even think its a recognised technical term here)... , because so much has to be taken into account... the majority of this would be workmanship, after that standards of materials, on site conditions etc.

you should not need to claim misleading figures if you are confident in your product.

 

[sas]

Re: ICF (Insulated Concrete Forms) using Reward Structures. - Is this an expensive qu

stated values of wall assemblies can be misleading.

I have no issue with this statement. If you compare the Nudura ICF with Standard block construction in Ireland it will certainly outperform it by more than the u-value difference reflects (i.e. 0.27 vs 0.25 (Nudura).

So basically the "performance u-value" is based on a comparison of a very poor standard timber frame construction in North America and Nudura ICF.

"Performance u-value" would appear to be at best a misleading marketing term.

 

[Leo]

Re: ICF (Insulated Concrete Forms) using Reward Structures. - Is this an expensive qu

HAB, welcome to AAM. In accordance with our , please confirm whether you have an association with any of the companies/bodies you mention above.
Leo