How does proportional representation work?

H

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Here is how I understand it but it doesnt make sense so I assume i have it wrong.

We get to vote #1, #2, #3 in order of preference.

The #1 votes are counted and the people who reach the quota (say for example its 10000 votes) get elected.

Then any more #1 votes they get over and above 10000 are given to the #2 on each ballot. So assuming you vote Bertie #1, Joe Bloggs #2 then once Bertie gets 10000 and they come along to counting your vote, your vote is given to Joe Bloggs because Bertie is already elected.

Here is what I dont understand. If the person beside me, say its Voter2 voted Bertie #1 and Jane Bloggs #2 and his vote was one of the ones that counted towards Bertie's 10000, then when they get to my vote, Joe Bloggs gets my vote. But if they counted mine before Voter2, then Jane Bloggs would have gotten the overflow. That seems a bit random and unfair.

Can someone explain it to me simply.
 
Re: How does proportional represenation work?

From Wikipedia:

Single transferable vote in a multi-member constituency
Main article: Single Transferable Vote
This method of proportional representation uses a system of preferential voting to determine the results of the election
A constituency elects two or more representatives per electorate. Consequently the constituency is proportionally larger than a single member constituency. Parties tend to offer as many candidates as they most optimistically could expect to win: the major parties may nominate almost as many candidates as there are seats, while the minor parties and independents rather fewer. Voters mark their ballot, allocating preferences to their preferred ranking for some or all candidates. A successful candidate must achieve a quota being the total number of votes received divided by the number of candidates to be elected plus one ie in a nine member constituency the nquota would be the number of votes divided by 10 (9 + 1), Only in a few cases is this achieved at the first count. For the second count, if a candidate wins election his surplus vote, in excess of the quota, is transferred to his voters' second choices; otherwise, the least popular candidate is eliminated and his votes redistributed according to the second preference shown on them. This process continues for as many counts as are needed until all seats are filled. Although the counting process is complicated, voting is clear and most voters get at least one of their preferences elected. All deputies are answerable directly to their local constituents. Some political scientists argue that STV is more properly classified as 'semi-proportional' as there is no assurance of a proportional result at a nationwide level. Indeed, many advocates of STV would argue that preventing nationwide proportionality is one of the primary goals of the system, to avoid the perceived risks of a very highly fragmented legislature.




Does that help?

In practice my understanding is that, to take your example, if the quota is 10,000 and Bertie gets 11,000 then 1,000 of his ballot papers are selected randomly and second preferences are distributed.

When a candidate is eliminated, all of their ballots are distributed.

Am I right??
 
Re: How does proportional represenation work?

Therre is a good article on PR in the Irish Times today. Worth having a read if you are interested.
 
Re: How does proportional represenation work?

If the person beside me, say its Voter2 voted Bertie #1 and Jane Bloggs #2 and his vote was one of the ones that counted towards Bertie's 10000, then when they get to my vote, Joe Bloggs gets my vote. But if they counted mine before Voter2, then Jane Bloggs would have gotten the overflow. That seems a bit random and unfair.
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All of the 2nd preferences for #1 would be counted, and then the surplus votes would be divided out proportionally based on this.
 
Re: How does proportional represenation work?

Thanks Tall Paul but i still am confused about this bit:

tallpaul said:
In practice my understanding is that, to take your example, if the quota is 10,000 and Bertie gets 11,000 then 1,000 of his ballot papers are selected randomly and second preferences are distributed.
Click to expand...

Its how they allocate or chose the surplus to be redistributed that I dont understand. If it s random like you suggest then it falls to chance who gets elected on the second round which doesnt seem to be in the spirit of a democracy.
 
Re: How does proportional represenation work?

Transfers from the first count are done in proportion, but in later counts the votes to be transferred are taken randomly from the bundle. From the Irish Times article:
If any candidate gets a quota or more on the first count, they will be elected. The next thing that will happen is that the surplus votes of any candidate with more than a quota will be distributed.

Taking our earlier case where the quota is 8,001, suppose that one candidate comes in over the quota with 10,001 votes and thus has a surplus of 2,000. That candidate's entire 10,001 votes will then be counted and the second preferences totted up.

Suppose that candidate X gets 50 per cent of the number twos, he or she will then get 50 per cent of the surplus (i.e. proportional) which in this case would come to 1,000 votes. A bundle of 1,000 votes is then physically transferred to X's pile.

When the first count surpluses are distributed, the candidate with the lowest number of votes is eliminated and his number 2s are transferred.

If the number 2 goes to a candidate who has already been elected or eliminated, it is passed to the next available candidate still in the contest. Again the votes are physically transferred. The process of elimination continues until all the seats are filled.

There is one added factor in the count. A candidate who is pushed over the quota with transfers in the middle of the count has a surplus to be distributed. Unlike a first count surplus, when all the number 2s are examined, a surplus on a subsequent count is a random selection of votes from the last bundle won by a candidate.

For instance, if candidate Y gets 7,000 votes on the first count and eventually ends up being pushed over the quota on a later count with, say a transfer of 2,001 from an eliminated candidate, it means that in our hypothetical constituency he will have a surplus of 1,000. The last 1,000 votes added to his pile will then be transferred to the next available preference on the ballot paper (i.e. random).
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Re: How does proportional represenation work?

Thanks everyone for your replies. I think that clears the matter up. i must buy the Irish times today to get that article.
 
Re: How does proportional represenation work?

They take the votes of the top of the pile (i.e the last ones counted or added to the pile)...many see this as unfair as they may not be represntative of the vote as whole (i.e. if they all came from one geographic area). I think there might be some mixing at the start though.

It's been challenged and upheld in court

It's worse on subsequent counts, say the surplus puts another candidate over the quota, then it is taken off the top again and distributed proportionately but these are not the No.1 votes of the most recent candidate elected.

Obviuosly it is done for efficiency, however even the dreaded electronic vote which could have sorted this problem by generating the proper figures (one of the arguments in it's favour) was programmed not to!! I think this was in order to have an equal system throughout the country when there was a mix of electronic and non electronic
 
Re: How does proportional represenation work?

Is it true to say the following?

Because the transfers from subsequent counts are random, then if there's a complete recount the votes for each candidate will (almost certainly) never be exactly the same.

If it is, then there's an abvious incentive for someone who's lost out by a handful of votes to keep asking for a recount.

This is in contrast to "1st pass the post" systems where a recount is just a check on what was previously done.
 
Re: How does proportional represenation work?

I think they recoujnt everything but do not remix them so they are simply retracing their steps
 
Re: How does proportional represenation work?

Because the transfers from subsequent counts are random, then if there's a complete recount the votes for each candidate will (almost certainly) never be exactly the same
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Of course with a properly implemented electronic voting system there would be no randomness. Maybe someday...
 
Re: How does proportional represenation work?

The whole transfer procedure isn't particularly transparent...I wonder what UN inspectors would make of it as there is a hint of banana republic about it all.
 
Re: How does proportional represenation work?

How do I correct a preferance while voting?
 
Re: How does proportional represenation work?

KalEl said:
The whole transfer procedure isn't particularly transparent...I wonder what UN inspectors would make of it as there is a hint of banana republic about it all.
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Can't agree with that. I'd say we have one of the most transparent systems in the world: go ask the tallyman!

Yet another reason for not going to electronic voting....
 
Re: How does proportional represenation work?

ang1170 said:
Can't agree with that. I'd say we have one of the most transparent systems in the world: go ask the tallyman!

Yet another reason for not going to electronic voting....
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That element is fine...but the transfer system is bizarre.

Say I vote Tom Kitt No.1 and Maria Corrigan No.2. You vote Tom Kitt No.1 and leave it at that.
The quota is 10,000 and Kitt wins 13,000 on the first count.
My vote could be put in the 10,000, could go into the surplus to be redistributed...who knows. So could yours.
What they should be doing is counting all the votes like yours with just a No.1 preference, seeing how many there are, then seeing how many can be transferred. This picking the top pile or randomly taking a pile stuff is where the problem arises.
Correct me if I'm wrong...
 
Re: How does proportional represenation work?

Dearg Doom said:
Of course with a properly implemented electronic voting system there would be no randomness. Maybe someday...
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This does not require e-voting. Recent manually counted elections in Northern Ireland using the Gregory system of PR implemented fractional transfer of votes. There is no reason why fractional vote transfers couldn't be done here too with paper ballots, removing the random element.

Electronic voting is a classic example of a solution searching for a problem. It creates vastly more problems than it solves and since it only gets used once every four or five years, the costs are way out of proportion to any benefits, which are in any case more perceived than real.
 
Re: How does proportional represenation work?

gonk said:
elections in Northern Ireland using the Gregory system of PR implemented fractional transfer of votes
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Seems from here the Gregory system is used here for Seanad elections - I wasn't aware of this. It's a bit odd to have two systems. Without understanding the details, it seems Gregory is not without it problems though (does not treat all votes equally).
 
Re: How does proportional represenation work?

Dearg Doom said:
Without understanding the details, it seems Gregory is not without it problems though (does not treat all votes equally).
Click to expand...

All voting systems have their pluses and minuses. Computerising the systems does not remove them.
 
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