How does Executor file CGT return for the estate

Discussion in 'Wills, inheritances and gifts' started by ricta, 29 Aug 2017.

  1. ricta

    ricta Frequent Poster

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    I am an Executor disposing of an asset (house) as part of the administration of my late mother's estate. I understand it is my duty to make a CGT return, the property has increased in value since the date of death. From another post hehre "According to TCA 1997 s 573, personal representatives are chargeable on gains arising on the sale of assets during estate administration."

    I have searched the Revenue site for instructions but cannot see which is the correct form or mechanism to use for this purpose. Personally, I am a ROS and Form 11 user.

    After the sale, and CGT payment, the residue will be distributed to beneficiaries.

    Can anyone tell me how, as Adminstrator, I should make the CGT payment for the estate? What form is used?

    thanks
     
  2. ricta

    ricta Frequent Poster

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    after some more digging I eventually found a download of Form 1, this looks like the form I need to use. I hink i will have to have a chat with Revenue to see how they will differentiate the return from my own personal tax return.
     
  3. Black Sheep

    Black Sheep Frequent Poster

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    If they have a local office nearby it might be worth you while popping in to them. They were very helpful when I was sorting out my parents estate and offered to complete forms for me.
     
  4. ricta

    ricta Frequent Poster

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    yes, I'm near a local revenue office, will drop in.
     
  5. Brendan Burgess

    Brendan Burgess Founder

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    Hi ricta

    I too am having difficulties in this area.

    I sold a house as executor in Dec 2016.
    I searched the Revenue website to find out how to pay the CGT and, to my astonishment, could find nothing.
    I searched online and found nothing.
    I rang Revenue - I got someone who had no idea what I was talking about. So I asked for her supervisor who answered very confidently and completely incorrectly. She insisted that the beneficiaries should all file separate CGT returns. She just would not listen to me telling her that this made no sense at all.

    An accountant told me that it was very simple. I could not make a return using the deceased's PPS number, so he said to send in a Form 11 with a cheque and a covering letter. I did that and closed my file.

    They allocated the payment and the return to my personal PPS number. 11 exchanges of correspondence later and the payment is allocated to the deceased's new PPS number, but the return is still under my number. To make things more complicated, I had paid preliminary CGT for myself back in December 2016, so they are trying to give me a refund as the CGT I paid was more than the deceased's liability.

    So if you find out how to do it, please do a Key Post for others to follow.

    Brendan
     
  6. jpd

    jpd Frequent Poster

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    When I was doing this, I applied for a separate PPS number for the estate - we had some income tax and then CGT to file
     
  7. Brendan Burgess

    Brendan Burgess Founder

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    That makes sense. I think that the problem I had was that I sold the property in December and had to pay it by January and so could not wait for them to provide a new PPS number.

    So maybe the thing for the Executor to do is to apply for the new PPS number well in advance?

    Brendan
     
  8. PMU

    PMU Frequent Poster

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    Last edited: 1 Sep 2017
    There is no need to get a separate PPS no for the estate. Make the payment to the Collector General using the appropriate payslip, i.e. CGT payslip A or B. Use the PPS No of the deceased on the payslip. Make your return on form CG1. The Tax Reference No is the PPS number of the deceased. In the Name & Address box write 'Estate of Ms. XXX (Deceased)' and the deceased's address after the name in the Name & Address box. When you sign it, write 'Executor' in the Capacity box.
     
    Last edited: 1 Sep 2017
  9. ricta

    ricta Frequent Poster

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    excellant advice, I was going to use Form 1 which has boxes to fill that say I would be acting as an executor of an estate, but I think I will try this instead.

    Actually, I will compare Form 1 and CG1 and see which is best for applying the above advice.
     
  10. ricta

    ricta Frequent Poster

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    I'm not surprised Brendan, and hoping the advice here will reduce my pain! I have obtained Probate in three personal applications, and I have learned that the best qualification to have is "the patience of Job" and an understanding that it is difficult to find individuals in our public services (Revenue, the Courts) with in-depth knowledge of the subject matter.

    It will take some time yet for the sale to conclude, I will update when it's over.
     
  11. PMU

    PMU Frequent Poster

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    Form 1? Do you mean 'Form 1 Tax Return and Self-Assessment for the year 20XX (relating to taxes on income and capital gains'? If you are just making a return on CGT, I would suggest form CG1.

    Form 1 is for trusts; estates under administration and certain corporate bodies. If you are just disposing of an asset, as per your first post, you are paying GCT, and form CG1 should be adequate.

    I have submitted the paper rendition of Form 1, to make returns on the income of a trust, in previous years to Revenue using the deceased's PPSN as the tax reference no. with no problems. However, Form 1 is now, i.e. from year 2016 returns onwards, electronic only. Which means you need an digital certificate from Revenue to submit the form on ROS; except if you are like me in the PAYE sector and apply for such a certificate, Revenue automatically takes you out of PAYEAnytime, which I now can't access or make my personal tax returns under PAYEAnytime anymore, so I'll have to sort that out. And it gets more complicated after that. . . . So unless you are making a return of untaxed income received by the estate, form CG1 should suffice for the CGT return.
     
  12. ricta

    ricta Frequent Poster

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    The asset being disposed of is still in the estate under administration, the proceeds will be distributed to the beneficiaries after the estate has paid the CGT, that's why Form 1 seems more applicable. than CG1, and should keep the matter seperate from my own tax affairs.

    I am already a ROS user, so I will be able to submit it electronically, if I can find the form in ROS.
     
  13. Brendan Burgess

    Brendan Burgess Founder

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    OK, I got a call back from Revenue to explain that they had now sorted out the returns and payments.

    They told me that the correct procedure for an Executor is to apply to the Registration Section at your local tax office for a new Registration Number for the estate. He said that they might do it over the phone, but if not, write to them.

    Brendan
     
  14. Brendan Burgess

    Brendan Burgess Founder

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    Last edited: 19 Sep 2017
    PMU - this is contrary to what Revenue told me. Have you actually done this recently?

    I suspect that it's not strictly correct, but that Revenue accept the return and make out a new number.

    I have again checked Revenue's website and I can't find any information on registering an estate with a new number.

    Brendan
     
    Last edited: 19 Sep 2017
  15. ricta

    ricta Frequent Poster

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    Thanks Brendan. Knowing that should ease the process greatly for me. Contracts of Sale have not been signed yet, so it could be a month or more before I get to contact Revenue.
     
  16. Brendan Burgess

    Brendan Burgess Founder

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    Last edited: 19 Sep 2017
    Hi ricta

    Why not contact them now and get the registration process done?

    I had a problem in that the contract closed in December and so I had to pay the tax by the following January. I was too close to the deadline to wait for a number to be issued.

    So do it now when there is no pressure.

    And, you can report back here with the latest practice.

    Brendan
     
    Last edited: 19 Sep 2017
  17. ricta

    ricta Frequent Poster

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    yes indeed, you are absolutely correct. I'll call into them tomorrow.

    "For disposals made between 1 January and 30 November (the initial period) you must pay CGT by 15 December of the same year.

    For disposals made between 1 December and 31 December (the later period) you must pay CGT by 31 January of the next year."
     
  18. PMU

    PMU Frequent Poster

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    Last edited: 19 Sep 2017
    You submit documents on paper using the PPSN of the deceased and Revenue just take the tax. If you can submit a paper form, e.g. CGT1, just do that and send the tax plus payslip to the Collector-General in Limerick. Send the form to the deceased's tax office. You are complying with your legal obligations.

    Likewise I have previously submitted a paper form 1 concerning income tax for the estate. However, if mandatory e-filing is required, e.g. for income tax of an estate for 2016 returns onwards, you need an appropriate electronic certificate for the estate seperate from your own identity. To do this I had to submit a form TR1 for 'estates under administration' and Revenue provided me with a tax reference number for the estate for the relevant tax return. I used this to obtain a digital certificate for the estate. So far so good.

    Unfortunately, it hasn't actually worked, in that ROS rejected the form 1. I've submitted a query to Revenue (ROS) on Sept 15 on this and am awaiting a response.
     
    Last edited: 19 Sep 2017
  19. Brendan Burgess

    Brendan Burgess Founder

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    That is what I did. Except that they asked me for my own ppsn and allocated the payment and return to me.

    I think it's a lot cleaner to get a new number. It has taken me months to clean up the mess.

    Brendan
     
  20. Vanilla

    Vanilla Frequent Poster

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    You should have asked for specialist advice and avoided the mess.