Have we a shortage of GPs?

[Purple]

You opened this thread with a rhetorical question which you immediately proceeded to dissect with all the finesse of a lumberjack performing brain surgery. Hence, I would regard the above description of your subjective "facts" and poorly interpreted, half-baked "data" as being a tad charitable.

The overall tenor of your response has persuaded me not to engage further with you on this topic.

So you’ve nothing to offer but bombast and hyperbole. Oh, and this thread was split from a different one so I didn’t open it or title it.

Try offering data which counters my views, as @Early Riser did above, if you want discuss things like an adult.
And finally please realise that facts are not subjective and are not owned by anyone. If you disagree with them putting the word facts in quotation marks doesn’t constitute a rebuttal.

 

[Purple]

"I was told" is not a reliable source. The ICGP has been advocating for increased training places and the number of places has increased from 159 in 2015 to 258 in 2022 and is projected to increase further. I understand that the restraint that they and the HSE have been working to overcome is getting suitable supervised training positions, particularly for the hospital-based element of the training, which is 2 years. ( See ICGP submission to the Joint Committee on Health : https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oirea...-college-of-general-practitioners-icgp_en.pdf)

Also, there was a Competition Authority report on GP services in 2010 and it did not identify any "cap" being imposed on training. It did note that there was an issue with prior hospital training (eg, in another speciality) that may have been undertaken by a doctor not being recognised for entrants to the 4-year GP training programme (https://www.ccpc.ie/business/wp-con...7/03/General-Medical-Practitioners-Report.pdf)



This seems to be conflating two different issues. The cross-subsidisation refers to the fees paid by non-EU medical students for their undergraduate training (not GP training). It relates to funding for University courses in general and in this case medical training specifically. I don't think this issue is any where near resolved. In fact it is probably worse now than decades ago. It has nothing to do with an ICGP (or similar) "cap" on training places - other than that more lucrative non-EU students probably impinges on overall capacity.

Excellent post. If the large cohort of non-EU students are paying €42-€57k a year then they are the ones subsidising the Irish students. Without then the tax payer would be contributing more. Therefore it’s fair to say that it probably does cost €30k+ a year to train a doctor but around half of that is covered by other students.

 

[ashambles]

General practitioners in Europe in 2021 | Statista

In 2021, there were over 65 thousand general practitioners (GP) practicing in France, the highest number recorded in Europe, followed by Germany with approximately 61 thousand GPs and the Turkey with 60 thousand.

www.statista.com

22 Countries listed of which Ireland has the 9th highest ratio of GP's to population.

It would be nice to have more GPs - however from this table interpreting the difficulty people having in getting GPs is not due to a shortage relative to our European counterparts.

Population stats if anyone wants to check are from https://www.worldometers.info/population/countries-in-europe-by-population/

 

[Early Riser]

It would be nice to have more GPs - however from this table interpreting the difficulty people having in getting GPs is not due to a shortage relative to our European counterparts.

The GP numbers in that report appear to be the number on the Medical Council's specialist register rather than the number of GPs actually practising. There is no register of GPs in practice. The estimated numbers vary considerably depending on the source and the methodology but are generally lower than this - and some of them will be part time.
I don't know if the same isues apply to other countries. However, if reports in the UK press are anything to go by, it is a breeze to get to see a GP in Ireland compared to across the water.

 

[arbitron]

I can’t see anything more recent that the link I posted and the information given by other posters. It certainly isn’t €11k a year though, as @arbitron erroneously claimed above, given that it was over €30k 11 years ago.

According to the HEA in 2018: "€11,000 per student each year represents the estimated cost to the Department of Education and Skills"

State funds medical students at €7.7m per year — HEA

The State is funding about 700 medical students in five universities at approximately €11,000 per student each year, according to the Higher Education

www.imt.ie

 

[Purple]

According to the HEA in 2018: "€11,000 per student each year represents the estimated cost to the Department of Education and Skills"

State funds medical students at €7.7m per year — HEA

The State is funding about 700 medical students in five universities at approximately €11,000 per student each year, according to the Higher Education

www.imt.ie

Have you read the article you linked?

I noted above that together with the State’s contribution (estimated) and the subsidy paid by their fellow non EU students, along with the modest contribution paid by the students parents, the total cost would be in the region of €30k+.

The inability of the institution training our doctors to be open about costs may go some way to explaining the inability of their graduates to do the same thing in the institutions they work in.

 

[Purple]

General practitioners in Europe in 2021 | Statista

In 2021, there were over 65 thousand general practitioners (GP) practicing in France, the highest number recorded in Europe, followed by Germany with approximately 61 thousand GPs and the Turkey with 60 thousand.

www.statista.com

22 Countries listed of which Ireland has the 9th highest ratio of GP's to population.

It would be nice to have more GPs - however from this table interpreting the difficulty people having in getting GPs is not due to a shortage relative to our European counterparts.

Population stats if anyone wants to check are from https://www.worldometers.info/population/countries-in-europe-by-population/

It’s also worth noting that we have a very young population so we should not need as many doctors as other countries.

 

[Purple]

The GP numbers in that report appear to be the number on the Medical Council's specialist register rather than the number of GPs actually practising.

Yes, it’s almost impossible to get an accurate number, especially when non vocationally trained doctors working as locum GPs are added in.

There is no register of GPs in practice. The estimated numbers vary considerably depending on the source and the methodology but are generally lower than this - and some of them will be part time.

Don’t forget the locums!

I don't know if the same isues apply to other countries. However, if reports in the UK press are anything to go by, it is a breeze to get to see a GP in Ireland compared to across the water.

Yep, the NHS is a bit of a shambles though they do spend a good deal less than us and they have an older population.

On a general note, the problems in our healthcare system is in hospitals, not GP land. GP’s generally do a good job, though they are very well paid to do so, they just like to whinge about it.

It works better because primary care in publicly funded but privately delivered, just like the best healthcare systems in Europe.