Gaming the System

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Purple

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Why is Welfare fraud such a hot topic when there is such a prevalence of fraud and tax evasion across all areas of society?
I bought a phone for my daughter on Sunday and the woman in the shop offered to put her phone on my business account. She was amazed when I said no, that would be fraud/ tax evasion.
We make bogus insurance claims. I've been offered discounts for cash payments from tradespeople, solicitors, accountants, architects and doctors. That's all tax evasion/fraud.

We have TD's who have been found guilty of tax evasion on a massive scale. We have individuals in banks who engaged in massive and systematic fraud (the Tracker Mortgage scandal) who we all know will never be held personally accountable.
We live in a society where low level corruption, tax evasion and fraud are socially acceptable. Telling an American that you don't pay your taxes is like telling them you are a pedophile. If you are fully tax compliant here you are a fool.

How do we change that?
Do we want to change it?
 
If you don't trust your government to spend your money wisely, or think they are wasting it on frivolous things... then you will see it as ok to dodge the tax that they levy.

If you don't see a connection between the tax you contribute, and how it is manifested in your area in schools, hospitals, roads, police, infrastructure projects... then you will see it as acceptable to dodge tax.

Does the American Federal system, where different taxes are levied at different levels, help to form those connections?

If you feel that the tax levied is too high, and over and above what should be necessary, they you will see it as ok to dodge tax. Personally, if the government has to take more than 50% of what you have earned, unless there's a war on, that's immoral, and I see it as perfectly morally acceptable to dodge that.
The Federal system allows you to up and move to a different city, county, state if you don't like the taxes in your current location.
I am sure that if American tax rates rocketed under a socialist President, you would see an increase in evasion.

I guess the difference with welfare fraud v tax evasion is that with welfare fraud it's like shoplifting a CD off the shelf; versus downloading a CD for free online.
 
A large section of society see evading tax as legitimate and just 'sticking it to the man'. That's OK because they are all 'honest decent' people, all in it together. Someone getting a cash price on a building job is just seen as getting a good deal, not stealing from their neighbours or wider society. After all, it's those super rich who should be paying more anyway. When a bank does something similar, well, that's a different story, because they are seen as those super rich, they're not the self same honest decent people, so different rules apply.

It reminds me of the story of the Greek downfall, how they all evaded tax on a massive scale, but it was only when they saw some monks do the same they all cried foul. Think I read the story from a link here a number of years ago, still makes interesting reading.
 
Also in Ireland there seems to be a legacy of tax evasion and general evasion of 'misdemeanour' laws things like planning permission etc... this seems to have started as a general rebellion against British rule and it was never eradicated in Free State times as a 'sticking to the man' (to quote Leo) attitude.
 
We were seen as an unruly lot even before the era of colonial excesses. Basically, as a nation, we've got a dishonest streak.

Then again, perhaps most countries do. We're certainly not the worst.
 
Sweeping statements on supposedly tax evasion in the above comments but, are we talking about tax evasion or tax avoidance? One is legal and one is not and a lot of people don't seem to understand. Yes, we have tax evasion, i'm not disputing that. We also have specific branches of accountancy dealing with people who wish to avoid paying tax above and beyond what's legally expected and whither we like it or not this is above board even if it's frowned on by the moral police.
Now, the above is just a thought to throw into the mix, it usually gets the snowflakes up and out to flex their little keyboard muscles. :)
 
Because of our language and geographic location, we naturally compare ourselves to US, UK etc and our media reports on political goings on in those countries.

But in our political culture, and I think the welfare \ tax attitude falls into that, we seem to have more in common with historically 'Catholic' countries. Are we any worse or better on these things than say, France?
 
noproblem said:
Sweeping statements on supposedly tax evasion in the above comments but, are we talking about tax evasion or tax avoidance? One is legal and one is not and a lot of people don't seem to understand. Yes, we have tax evasion, i'm not disputing that. We also have specific branches of accountancy dealing with people who wish to avoid paying tax above and beyond what's legally expected and whither we like it or not this is above board even if it's frowned on by the moral police.
Now, the above is just a thought to throw into the mix, it usually gets the snowflakes up and out to flex their little keyboard muscles. :)
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no problem once people don't mind paying high taxes to fund the above but I think they do have a problem up until now they blamed the wrong people for there high taxes,
 
odyssey06 said:
f you don't trust your government to spend your money wisely, or think they are wasting it on frivolous things... then you will see it as ok to dodge the tax that they levy.

If you don't see a connection between the tax you contribute, and how it is manifested in your area in schools, hospitals, roads, police, infrastructure projects... then you will see it as acceptable to dodge tax.

Does the American Federal system, where different taxes are levied at different levels, help to form those connections?
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Yes, the issue of legitimacy of authority. It applies in households, businesses, sports teams and countries. If you perceive that the State is wasting your money then you resent paying your taxes. If you see welfare fraud you resent that too and so we get to a "sure everyone else is at it, you'd be a fool not to" attitude.
How do we change that?

In my opinion the media have a case to answer as they present most topics in emotive rather than empirical or factual terms.
 
Purple said:
Yes, the issue of legitimacy of authority. It applies in households, businesses, sports teams and countries. If you perceive that the State is wasting your money then you resent paying your taxes. If you see welfare fraud you resent that too and so we get to a "sure everyone else is at it, you'd be a fool not to" attitude.
How do we change that?
In my opinion the media have a case to answer as they present most topics in emotive rather than empirical or factual terms.
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I wouldn't entirely exonerate the political system.
If the media are reporting frivolous political spending, the bucks stops with the politicians not the media.
I think real local government would help with the legitimacy of authority and the connection people see between tax and their local area.

I don't think we are too hard on welfare fraud. Maybe we need to be harder on tax and other forms of evasion of laws. The government seems to find it easier to introduce new laws rather than looking at why current ones are actually enforced (e.g. how many motoring offences thrown out for technicalities). That does not generate respect for their authority.
 
I agree odyssey06 but it is very common to see so-called journalists write articles in which they conflate issues and mislead the reader about cause and effect.
 
Purple said:
I agree odyssey06 but it is very common to see so-called journalists write articles in which they conflate issues and mislead the reader about cause and effect.
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True, but you could say that in any discussion thread on any political subject :(
I don't know if it is a specific factor here.
Far too many journalists need to be sent on a course on how to properly assess a statistical claim... how to ask the questions that the study\report etc hasn't even tried to answer.
I exonerate the FactCheck person at The Journal from that list!
 
noproblem said:
I've genuinely no idea what you're trying to say.
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People who defend loopholes are the same people whinging about the amount of tax they pay if you look back on this site , We will still be paying for lots of the loopholes they are defending in thirty years time,
 
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RETIRED2017 said:
People who defend loopholes are the same people whinging about the amount of tax they pay if you look back on this site , We will still be paying for lots of the loopholes they are defending in thirty years time,
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Can you clarify the relevant loopholes and who is defending them?
 
Purple said:
Telling an American that you don't pay your taxes is like telling them you are a pedophile. If you are fully tax compliant here you are a fool.
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Well given that between 45% and 53% of American households to not pay income taxes, there is every chance you will be telling to someone who does not pay income taxes either!

Purple said:
How do we change that?
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Stop crusading and start reporting, off you go!
 
Gordon Gekko said:
High earners are entitled to feel peeved when their taxes are squandered in the manner that they currently are.
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Currently what an understatement lots of the commitments and squandering if the were to stop tomorrow it will take forty years for the squandering to work its way out of the system the biggest cheerleaders for no change are High earners the think FF/FG are looking out for them there are in for a shock .They have done more long term damage to high wage earners than any left wing government could ever imagine getting away with, The Trioka are badly missed by high earners,

The first that needs to happen is we need to get rid of FF or FG we only need one of them replacing a FG Government by FF will not work one or the other needs to be got rid off seeing they will not share power and give us what we voted for,

We need to use our vote to merge fg and ff into the same party we need an open a debate on which should go ,
 
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Gordon Gekko said:
High earners are entitled to feel peeved when their taxes are squandered in the manner that they currently are.
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What about low and middle income earners? Or is it just a privilege for high-earners?
The irony is, the laws, decisions, rules, are by and large drawn up and set by high-earners. Isnt that why they are paid a pretty penny? To take the 'hard' decisions?
 
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TheBigShort said:
What about low and middle income earners? Or is it just a privilege for high-earners?
The irony is, the laws, decisions, rules, are by and large drawn up and set by high-earners. Isnt that why they paid a pretty penny? To take the 'hard' decisions?
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Lots of high earners think like you they are in for a shock they are already starting to pick up the tab .They are not looking closely at where the tax is being spent ,
 
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