Fire Protection between me and my neighbour

B

build4less

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Does anyone out there know what is required to stop a fire spreading between my neighbours house and mine in the attic. I know there is supposed to be some sort of fire protection on my seperating wall but there is none. Is this normal or should there be a fire stop on top of my wall.

If so what should it be?
 
Aha, disregard my previous reply to your PM - you've posted here.

The object of fire seperation between properties is to prevent the spread of flame and protect life.
This includes breaking the battens and sealing the top of the party wall up to the underside of the roof covering to avoid any voids through which smoke, fumes and flames could travel.
You also need to adress the separation between bay windows, imperforate jointing and rendering of the party wall, sealing of the eaves boxing and any services penetrations.

Finally the issue of structural stability of the semid-d or terrace must be considered and structure serving one house should be able to collapse in a fire without affecting the other house.
Thus building on hangers, corbels or projecting padstones is better than building-in, because an intermediate floor can collapse without pulling down the party wall, similarly for purlins in the attic space.
Building-in also creates a fire hazard because the timber projects into the wall and may either meet or cross timbers from the adjoining property.
This can be a hidden hazard in older properties and may need upgrading of all the ceilings to one hour to help combat it.

Another hidden hazard is internal insulation of walling - whether aprty or not - and services drops.
Unscrupulous debelopers may not have sealed the ceiling to the outer walls, leaving a passage for sold smoke and gases like carbon monoxide to pass up into the sleeping areas.
Services drops can make this worse, whether hidden and the penetration unsealed, or else exposed in non-fire-rated surface ductwork that hides the penetration in the ceiling or walling.
All of the above comments also apply to protect escape routes where attic conversions have taken place.

In reality, this is such a specialist subject that this only covers the barest outline, but don't assume that by doing one detail in the Technical Guidance Documents the whole house is done perfectly.
And remember to talk to your building control officer, particularly if this is in Meath, where there is a pretty committed guy running the show - Tough but fair.
In Wicklow this person may also be the County Architect, but its been a long time since I spoke to his office.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
 
I understand what you are saying but my engineer has specified the fire stopping that is illustrated in TGD B for my party wall but yet I have been told that this detail has never performed in a fire and does not give me one hour as the wall does. Once the roof collapses this detail fails and fire spreads into my house or my neighbours but yet this is what we are told to use in TGD B but on the other hand im been told not to use what is illustrated in TGD B. I dont know what to do!!!!
Does the detail in TGD B work or not. Is there a certificate I can get from the manufacturer that tells me it has been tested and is approved in this location on top of a party wall?
 
build4less said:
I understand what you are saying but my engineer has specified the fire stopping that is illustrated in TGD B for my party wall but yet I have been told that this detail has never performed in a fire and does not give me one hour as the wall does. Once the roof collapses this detail fails and fire spreads into my house or my neighbours but yet this is what we are told to use in TGD B but on the other hand im been told not to use what is illustrated in TGD B. I dont know what to do!!!!
Does the detail in TGD B work or not. Is there a certificate I can get from the manufacturer that tells me it has been tested and is approved in this location on top of a party wall?
Click to expand...

This is very specialist so read the disclaimer in my sig and take it to heart, but I'm not leaving this hanging after your warning on another thread.

First, for your peace of mind.

Get on the phone and talk this out with your local fire officer.
They are public sector empoyees and have a duty to assist members of the public.
They don't want to be called out to avoidable fires, so they have an added motivation.
They will give you chapter and verse on the details.

As to the logic you use above - think about it for a minute.
Fire and flames are trying to get into the adjoining house from a build up of hot air and flames in your house under an impervious tile or slate roof.
The tile or slate roof is not fire rated or required to be so under the regulations - why?
Becase, and your fire office inquiry will confirm this, once the roof collapses or the covering is seriously breached, the heat can escape out, lowering the internal temperature and making it less likely the fire will spread laterally.

We used the TGD detail on a penthouse in town once and one of them went on fire.
Roof burnt through, the adjoining penthouses were okay.

All this is literally up in the air if there is a strong directional wind fanning the flames.
Just remember, the detail at the top of the party wall needs the battens broken - its the charring of the battens that spreads the fire even if the rest of the detail is in.
Also the fire stopping must fill the triangle under the felt and must fill in between one line of battens and the next as well as separating the ends from each other to prevent charring.

You will hear different arguments about different materials, with some favouring the more robust mortar fill and others favouring the potentially less robust but usefully flexible Rockwool. A judicious use of both with some fire sealent may give the best result, but its really down to a matter of detail workmanship on site and if there is a company offering to certify the work you'll be following their approved details.

If you're really panicking, why not go for a planning permission and raise the party walls 375mm vertically over the roof finish - that's both a thernal break and a shield against blow over to a small degree.

======================================

Second, for your safety.

Laypersons or persons who don't understand the principles involved and the pitfalls should not attempt fire proofing without professional guidance.
There are firms claiming expertise out there who may seal a particular thing, but might miss something in the over view I posted above, which is not exhaustive.
My best advice is to employ an expert to offer advice and a competent, skilled person with experience of fire sealing to carry out the work - and also issue a certificate.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
 
Yes thanks for the help but I dont want to bring the wall out through the roof as it means it needs to be maintained then and climbing up a ladder to paint this is not my idea of fun or if there is a leak.

So if this detail will work on my wall why has it been shown to fail so many times just like a recent fire I seen in Glasgow where a heap of appartments went on fire and the TGD B fire stopping that was fitted did not work? That was on Sky news.

Im just afraid to do anything that will not work and therefor cause death or serious injury. Are there other systems out there that work? I dont want to be hoping the wind is blowing in the right direction when my house goes on fire.
 
The reporting on Sky news can be patchy in terms of its competence and in-depth nature or otherwise.
If you have a link to a technical article about the Glasgow apartments I'd have a look, but I'm not sure how relevant this all is.

I recall a fire in London apartments a while ago, you're not confusing the two are you?
They were a system build type of building and seemed to have a lot of defects.
None seemed to be caused particularly by top of party walls defects.
I seem to recall some very dodgy escape routing.

If you're really this concerned and aren't happy to install a deemed-to-satisfy detail or even to ring your local fire officer - you're in a bind, aren't you?
I think you should talk to the fire officer and install the detail - if you've no experience employ someone who has - plenty of people looking for work.

In addition, you could upgrade the number and type of your fire detection and alarm detectors and sounders and seal all penetrations.
Install escape compliant windows from all upper rooms and put 60FR fire boarding to the stairs enclosure and intermediate floors,ceilings.
Fit fire doors with self closers to the bedrooms and a fire rated attic access hatch with rockwool and not fibreglass insulation to the attic.

Check all your wiring and light fittings using a registered electrical contractor.
Ensure any transformers have automatic cut-out and all downlighters are correctly installed.
This involves keeping insulation back from the fittings and transformers to avoid a built up of heat leading to combustion.
Also if you are converting the attic for habitable use remember it needs work done in terms of providing access and exit.

These are some of the measures used for upgrading fire escapes when converting attic spaces and you should investigate these measures in TGD B.
I strongly advise you to talk with a fire specialist for an hour and pay them for their time.
That way you'll listen, because a lot of people don't seem to take on board fee advice.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
 
The links say very little about the cause of the fire except; -

  • "vandalised"
  • "empty for 18 months"
  • "still under construction"
No chimneys, possibly people living rough.
Could have been from a fire lit on a timber floor.
Looks like it was a timber frame at the penthouse level.
Was it timber frame internally with timber floors? - hard to say.

There is no timeframe for how long it took the initial fire to develop.
The fire could have been contained well within limits for escape purposes.

I directly know of one penthouse level fire that burned itself out and didn't spread.
That was with 215mm solid block party walls and 200mm PCRC slabs with 75mm screed.

For fire proofing an existing building I advise you to talk to a Fire Safety specialist AND your local fire officer.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
 
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