Farewell Nigel Farage

[Wahaay]

That's exactly the point. The "too much immigration" stems from the automatic access Europeans had to live and work in Britain. But Farage used the scare mongering tactic of illegal migrants from Africa and Mid East. He promised "take back control of borders", but nothing of the sort has occurred.
Instead, it's the ordinary working Europeans that are denied entry (unless they choose to arrive illegally now).

Denied entry ?
4.2 million EU citizens applied for and were given status to remain in the UK after Brexit - about a million more than was expected.
Any EU citizen who wishes to move to the UK faces exactly the same immigration process that you or I would face if we wished to move permanently to say the USA or Australia.
Is there are job available that couldn't be done by a UK citizen ? Can we afford to live in the UK without becoming a burden on the state ?
Exactly how is the UK any different from any other country with control of its own borders ?

 

[WolfeTone]

Any EU citizen who wishes to move to the UK faces exactly the same immigration process that you or I would face if we wished to move permanently to say the USA or Australia.

Yeh, I know. That is Britains perogative.
My point, for third time, is that Farage used illegal African and Mid East migrants as a means to generate support for leaving EU. He promised Britain would take back control of its borders. Less than a month ago he was on some vessel in the English channel highlighting the continuing issue of illegal migration.
In other words, he didn't know what he was talking about when he claimed by leaving the EU the UK could get a grip on illegal migration.

 

[Wahaay]

Yeh, I know. That is Britains perogative.
My point, for third time, is that Farage used illegal African and Mid East migrants as a means to generate support for leaving EU. He promised Britain would take back control of its borders. Less than a month ago he was on some vessel in the English channel highlighting the continuing issue of illegal migration.
In other words, he didn't know what he was talking about when he claimed by leaving the EU the UK could get a grip on illegal migration.

Actually you couldn't be further from the truth.
During the Brexit campaign Farage concentrated mainly on the potential damage to the UK of unlimited migration from the EU of mainly newer East European EU countries. Those coming across the English Channel in dinghies were a mere trickle by comparison.
What drove his support in many working class communities was theirs was where these migrants generally headed to putting pressure on housing, schools and health services.
His main point - and it's one which very much applies to Ireland now - is that if you don't know the numbers of migrants who will be coming into your country in the next 5-10 years how do you plan the infrastucture that is inevitably needed to cope with the numbers ?
The old lady in a rundown Northern ex-mill town who used to be able to toddle off to her local GP for aches and pains now had to ring up and book a non-emergency appointment for two weeks later.
While her children who had been on council housing waiting lists for years watched recently-arrived migrant families prioritised ahead of them because under EU law they were entitled to be housed by the council.
You might not think these gripes important but Farage listened to them and understood the anger which is why Brexit happened.
Labour, under Corbyn, were too busy fighting battles over transgender public toilets and support for failed Latin American socialist states and paid the price by ending up 160 seats behind the Tories.
Dems de facts.

 

[WolfeTone]

You might not think these gripes important

I'm not sure what you are talking about. I understand that unlimited immigration from EU was a issue, particularly amongst working class. I said it earlier in my first post

I think he, or anyone else for that matter, are entitled to hold a legitimate view if they perceive there is too much immigration.

He is still on vessels out in the English Channel identifying the illegal and dangerous crossings by migrants arriving from France. He promised Brexit would resolve this. Maybe I'm being too harsh, maybe they need more time?

 

[Purple]

His main point - and it's one which very much applies to Ireland now - is that if you don't know the numbers of migrants who will be coming into your country in the next 5-10 years how do you plan the infrastucture that is inevitably needed to cope with the numbers ?
The old lady in a rundown Northern ex-mill town who used to be able to toddle off to her local GP for aches and pains now had to ring up and book a non-emergency appointment for two weeks later.
While her children who had been on council housing waiting lists for years watched recently-arrived migrant families prioritised ahead of them because under EU law they were entitled to be housed by the council.

Yes, that's the narrative he peddled but by any measure EU immigrants were good for the UK economy, as they are good for ours. The reason said Granny couldn't get stroll into the GP was the lack of funding and/or waste of funding within the health service. The immigrants boost tax revenues so that should increase the relative number of GP's.

You'd buy a house in those ex-Mill Towns in Northern England for a bag of bruised apples. Maybe her children should provide for themselves.

Labour, under Corbyn, were too busy fighting battles over transgender public toilets and support for failed Latin American socialist states and paid the price by ending up 160 seats behind the Tories.

While Corbyn was and is a fan of Marxist Dictators you could never accuse him of being an advocate for the LGBT community.

 

[Wahaay]

Maybe her children should provide for themselves.

Exactly the sentiment which drove so many working class voters into the Leave camp.
They appear to have remained with the Tories ever since if opinion polls are anything to go by.

While Corbyn was and is a fan of Marxist Dictators you could never accuse him of being an advocate for the LGBT community.

More of an advocate for the LGBT+ ( the new acronym doncha know ) community than he is for Jews.
Another section of their traditional vote which abandoned Labour.

 

[Purple]

More of an advocate for the LGBT+ ( the new acronym doncha know ) community than he is for Jews.
Another section of their traditional vote which abandoned Labour.

He was an active non-advocate for the Jewish Community.

 

[Wahaay]

He was an active non-advocate for the Jewish Community.

They say you can always judge a person by the company they keep.
Allahu Akbar, to be sure to be sure ...

 

[EmmDee]

Actually you couldn't be further from the truth.
During the Brexit campaign Farage concentrated mainly on the potential damage to the UK of unlimited migration from the EU of mainly newer East European EU countries. Those coming across the English Channel in dinghies were a mere trickle by comparison.
What drove his support in many working class communities was theirs was where these migrants generally headed to putting pressure on housing, schools and health services.
His main point - and it's one which very much applies to Ireland now - is that if you don't know the numbers of migrants who will be coming into your country in the next 5-10 years how do you plan the infrastucture that is inevitably needed to cope with the numbers ?
The old lady in a rundown Northern ex-mill town who used to be able to toddle off to her local GP for aches and pains now had to ring up and book a non-emergency appointment for two weeks later.
While her children who had been on council housing waiting lists for years watched recently-arrived migrant families prioritised ahead of them because under EU law they were entitled to be housed by the council.
You might not think these gripes important but Farage listened to them and understood the anger which is why Brexit happened.
Labour, under Corbyn, were too busy fighting battles over transgender public toilets and support for failed Latin American socialist states and paid the price by ending up 160 seats behind the Tories.
Dems de facts.

Dem is unfortunately not de facts.

Farage didn't focus on EU immigrants. He did bring it up to some extent but the major push was the pictures of Syrian refugees and teh threat of Turkey joining the EU

The story that EU immigrants were putting pressure on social welfare provision was complete nonsense. Under EU rules, there is no obligation to provide full social services to EU migrants. If you move to Belgium or Germany you aren't entitled to anything. It was the UK who chose to implement the policy they did

EU migrants provided a lot more to the NHS than they used. Largely they are lower users of the NHS and contribute significantly more in terms of labour and taxes

Ironically, under EU protocols, non EU refugees can be returned to the EU country where they were first processed. On leaving the EU, there is no right to send them back to France. Under UN convention, refugees can claim asylum wherever they prefer - so the situation now is that the same number will likely come across but there is no right to return them to the EU

The old lady you refer to is suffering because of the general de-funding of front line services and local councils over the last 10-15 years. It's nothing to do with immigrants. But Farage made the simplistic but erroneous connection

 

[Wahaay]

Dem is unfortunately not de facts.

Farage didn't focus on EU immigrants. He did bring it up to some extent but the major push was the pictures of Syrian refugees and teh threat of Turkey joining the EU

The story that EU immigrants were putting pressure on social welfare provision was complete nonsense. Under EU rules, there is no obligation to provide full social services to EU migrants. If you move to Belgium or Germany you aren't entitled to anything. It was the UK who chose to implement the policy they did

EU migrants provided a lot more to the NHS than they used. Largely they are lower users of the NHS and contribute significantly more in terms of labour and taxes

Ironically, under EU protocols, non EU refugees can be returned to the EU country where they were first processed. On leaving the EU, there is no right to send them back to France. Under UN convention, refugees can claim asylum wherever they prefer - so the situation now is that the same number will likely come across but there is no right to return them to the EU

The old lady you refer to is suffering because of the general de-funding of front line services and local councils over the last 10-15 years. It's nothing to do with immigrants. But Farage made the simplistic but erroneous connection

Investment in the NHS has never done anything but increase in every year of its existence.
It's a financial bottomless pit.
What causes delays in appointments is increased demand.
Nothing else.

 

[EmmDee]

Investment in the NHS has never done anything but increase in every year of its existence.
It's a financial bottomless pit.
What causes delays in appointments is increased demand.
Nothing else.

I'm sure you'll realise after you reread my comments that I referenced front line and council funding. Not NHS.

Increased demand for the NHS comes largely from an ageing English population

 

[Wahaay]

I'm sure you'll realise after you reread my comments that I referenced front line and council funding. Not NHS.

Increased demand for the NHS comes largely from an ageing English population

In 1990 the population of the UK was 57 million.
It's now 68 million.
Welcome to Brexit.

 

[EmmDee]

In 1990 the population of the UK was 57 million.
It's now 68 million.
Welcome to Brexit.

What's 1990 got to do with anything... Other than random data mining your engaging in.

It's a familiar tactic... Get called on incorrect "facts", throw out a tangential claim, get called on that so follow up by throwing random stats that have no bearing on anything... Other than to try to distract from the original nonsense and appear to be quoting data.

And dems da real facts

 

[WolfeTone]

In 1990 the population of the UK was 57 million.
It's now 68 million.
Welcome to Brexit.

That is significantly lower than global population growth rate. In 1990 it was 5.2billion, in 2020 7.7 billion.

But what any of that has to do with Nigel Farage and Brexit is beyond me.

 

[Wahaay]

What's 1990 got to do with anything... Other than random data mining your engaging in.

It's a familiar tactic... Get called on incorrect "facts", throw out a tangential claim, get called on that so follow up by throwing random stats that have no bearing on anything... Other than to try to distract from the original nonsense and appear to be quoting data.

And dems da real facts

Okay.
I'll be more specific.
In 2004 eight former Eastern Bloc countries including Poland were admitted to the EU.
In that year the UK's population stood at 59 million.
Two further countries Bulgaria and Romania joined in 2007.
By that year the UK population stood at 61 million.
Today the population total is 68 million.
That's a population increase of 9 million in around 15 years, the exact total of which the UK was unable to plan ahead for because of the principle of the free movement of people.
That is the main reason for the strains on the NHS, education and housing and not an ageing population which didn't suddenly get very old very quickly.
It's also the primary reason behind Brexit as I mentioned a few posts ago.

 

[EmmDee]

Okay.
I'll be more specific.
In 2004 eight former Eastern Bloc countries including Poland were admitted to the EU.
In that year the UK's population stood at 59 million.
Two further countries Bulgaria and Romania joined in 2007.
By that year the UK population stood at 61 million.
Today the population total is 68 million.
That's a population increase of 9 million in around 15 years, the exact total of which the UK was unable to plan ahead for because of the principle of the free movement of people.
That is the main reason for the strains on the NHS, education and housing and not an ageing population which didn't suddenly get very old very quickly.
It's also the primary reason behind Brexit as I mentioned a few posts ago.

Honestly... Do you just believe everything he says.

The decision to allow free inward movement from the new EU countries was a UK one. Just like the applicability of social services. All EU countries had the option to restrict movement for the first 10 (I think) years. The UK chose not to.

The arguments around Brexit put forward by Garage have by and large been UK decisions

 

[WolfeTone]

Okay.
I'll be more specific.

Still significantly lower than world population growth rate.

Closer to home, out of 48 European countries in 2018, the UK measures about 15th for population growth.

List of European countries by population growth rate - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Wahaay]

Still significantly lower than world population growth rate.

Closer to home, out of 48 European countries in 2018, the UK measures about 15th for population growth.

List of European countries by population growth rate - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Still significantly lower than world population growth rate.

Closer to home, out of 48 European countries in 2018, the UK measures about 15th for population growth.

List of European countries by population growth rate - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

It doesn't really matter how the UK's population growth compares to world averages.
A population explosion in a large Third World country will have a different effect to that in a small,already overcrowded First World country.
I'm just telling you the reason that drove Farage's popularity and ultimately Britain leaving the EU.
51% of the voters didn't suddenly develop either a yearning for the Empire or a hatred of foreigners.

 

[WolfeTone]

I'm just telling you the reason that drove Farage's popularity and ultimately Britain leaving the EU.

I know what drove Farages popularity, and I do think it is legitimate to question a country's immigration policy.
I'm simply pointing out that Farage claim that Brexit would "take control of borders", or curb illegal immigration was false.
Also the claims of overcrowding, and too much pressure on social services, were also false. As pointed out by others, it is a consequence of decades of defunding social services. Combine that with stagnant wages and people like Farage can point fingers at immigrants and say its all their fault.

 

[EmmDee]

Okay.
I'll be more specific.
In 2004 eight former Eastern Bloc countries including Poland were admitted to the EU.
In that year the UK's population stood at 59 million.
Two further countries Bulgaria and Romania joined in 2007.
By that year the UK population stood at 61 million.
Today the population total is 68 million.
That's a population increase of 9 million in around 15 years, the exact total of which the UK was unable to plan ahead for because of the principle of the free movement of people.
That is the main reason for the strains on the NHS, education and housing and not an ageing population which didn't suddenly get very old very quickly

Net immigration in that period from the countries you cite totalled less than 1.5mm... the majority of which were working / younger

The free movement from expansion countries is a red herring. It wasn't forced on the UK, they didn't have to have access to services (and most didn't), it wasn't a drain on social services and most importantly it was a fraction of general population growth.

Further... UK policy requires population growth on this scale. It is the only way the country can maintain services with an ageing indigenous population.