Health Insurance Fair Deal Scheme/Nursing Home Loan Scheme

[Slim]

Freelander - the NTPF rate is the 'wholesale' deal as set by the HSE. If your mother's Fair Deal assessment is much more, it pays her to go privately but she will have to pay the private rate. Remember though, it is important to apply for and receive the Fair Deal assessment because, even if you then go privately for a few years, the 3 year limit on inclusion of PPR starts when she applies/goes into the home, so after 3 years the value of her PPR may be deducted from the assessment(even if she has been a private resident for those 3 years).

 

[chippengael]

Hi, I'm looking for some guidance on this. My mother, who recently passed away, was on the HSE Ancillary Support (Loan) Scheme. As she had land assets as well as a PPR, we received no support from the state, except the substantial loan itself, which we will now repay. Does the HSE claim its share of the estate before or after probate? If before, who decides which assets are to be disposed of? If after, are the beneficiaries liable in proportion to their share of the estate?
Many thanks.

 

[Slim]

Hi Chippengael. Sorry for your loss. On the death of the resident, the loan becomes payable to Revenue and must be repaid within 12 months or interest will accrue. It is the responsibility of the Executor or Administrator of the estate to discharge this debt. If the loan is not repaid, beneficiaries will beheld liable. The decision on disposal of assets will be one for the legal personal representative, perhaps in consultation with the other beneficiaries.
See info booklet here: [broken link removed]

 

[Freelander]

Freelander - the NTPF rate is the 'wholesale' deal as set by the HSE. If your mother's Fair Deal assessment is much more, it pays her to go privately but she will have to pay the private rate. Remember though, it is important to apply for and receive the Fair Deal assessment because, even if you then go privately for a few years, the 3 year limit on inclusion of PPR starts when she applies/goes into the home, so after 3 years the value of her PPR may be deducted from the assessment(even if she has been a private resident for those 3 years).

Thanks Slim,
Just a clarification:
You state "so after 3 years the value of her PPR may be deducted from the assessment(even if she has been a private resident for those 3 years)."

I am not sure what this means. Does it mean that
a)_ after 3 years that she would still have to pay the private rate until her payments reach the an amount equal to 22.5% of the value of her home and then the HSE will pay? This could mean that if she lived for say 5 years she would be paying the private rate for nearly 4 years!
or
b) After the 3 years she will no longer have to pay the nursing home and the HSE will pay?

Can yo clarify why you say that "it pays her to go privately" ?

Thanks again.
Freelander

 

[Slim]

Thanks Slim,
Just a clarification
b) After the 3 years she will no longer have to pay the nursing home and the HSE will pay?

Can yo clarify why you say that "it pays her to go privately" ?

Thanks again.
Freelander

Yes, b) subject to the financial assessment being in her favour, I.e. that the house will be disregarded for the assessment and her assessed contribution may be less than the nursing home private rate.

If the hse assessment calculates a contribution that would, in the first three years due the value of the house, be higher than the 'private' rate, it would pay her to pay the nursing home herself. But, the three years has started running.

 

[Johnbbf]

Yes, b) subject to the financial assessment being in her favour, I.e. that the house will be disregarded for the assessment and her assessed contribution may be less than the nursing home private rate.

If the hse assessment calculates a contribution that would, in the first three years due the value of the house, be higher than the 'private' rate, it would pay her to pay the nursing home herself. But, the three years has started running.

Hi guys,
We have already been paying around 950 a week for my father , the hse pays about 200. Is that the regular price of care or is it specially for fair deal beneficiaries?. My parents have moderate assets in the bank and a regular semi- d home. Sadly for us, my mother died( at home) last month, I am submitting their bank statements for reassessment for my dad now as a 'single 'person which is scaring me a little. .
What I am unclear of in this thread, is if we are re assessed for 1300( for example) but the NH costs only 1000, do we have to pay 1300? Forgive me if I seem unclear. Can the hse say they will contribute nothing, but we still remain in the scheme?
Thanks for any guidance or experience.
J

 

[Slim]

Hi guys,
We have already been paying around 950 a week for my father , the hse pays about 200. Is that the regular price of care or is it specially for fair deal beneficiaries?. My parents have moderate assets in the bank and a regular semi- d home. Sadly for us, my mother died( at home) last month, I am submitting their bank statements for reassessment for my dad now as a 'single 'person which is scaring me a little. .
What I am unclear of in this thread, is if we are re assessed for 1300( for example) but the NH costs only 1000, do we have to pay 1300? Forgive me if I seem unclear. Can the hse say they will contribute nothing, but we still remain in the scheme?
Thanks for any guidance or experience.
J

Hi John, Sorry for your loss. No, you do not pay the higher amount. No one is expected to pay more than the actual cost of care. The rate you are charged is supposed to be the going rate but is approved by the HSE for the scheme, so there may me a slight variance but this could favour you too. By the way, that seems like a large amount being charged against your father. If you post actual numbers, income, assets etc we could see what is going on there. Maybe after you get the new assessment?

 

[Johnbbf]

Hi John, Sorry for your loss. No, you do not pay the higher amount. No one is expected to pay more than the actual cost of care. The rate you are charged is supposed to be the going rate but is approved by the HSE for the scheme, so there may me a slight variance but this could favour you too. By the way, that seems like a large amount being charged against your father. If you post actual numbers, income, assets etc we could see what is going on there. Maybe after you get the new assessment?

Thank you slim for your reply. I am living out of the country and am awaiting contact from the Hse after I resubmitted basic financial info. My parents have saved a large amount of cash, and have some investments, so I understand the relatively high payments. I was worried that there would be a drastic change in the amount to be paid. It is also reassuring to read that we can resubmit assets yearly as they decline, although the house value may go up. The 3 years will be up in August 2017 and then we shall see what happens. I happen to be a hospice nurse, so I know how hard it is to prognosticate with dementia! Thank you and others on this site who have helped me understand the details of this scheme, and thank you for your condolences. I have cousins who are dealing with the awful beginnings of dementia with their parents and in a way I am glad that we have just to cope with the financial peaks and valleys and not so much the emotional ones. And on that note, I will honor my mother who kept my dad at home while he became aggressive and difficult, and I believe sacrificed her health by doing that until she finally let him go. She was diagnosed with terminal cancer 2 weeks after she finally got him into a wonderful nursing home.

 

[Cathriona]

My problem is more upsetting to most of the family, my mother died a year ago having spent 5 years in nursing home under the fair deal scheme. She was so well looked after and very happy in the nursing home where the staff were superb. Her only asset her home has to be sold to pay the Fair deal costs,she had enough money saved to cover her funeral costs. However there is a delay in selling the home due to problems with one sibling, as a results we are going to incur large interest on the debt.. The terms of my mothers will is that after all debts are paid, her residue is to be divided equally among her children. The executors have now suggested that any of the benificiaries who can pay their portion of the fair Deal debt will not incur the interest. As this is a debt against the estate it is causing a lot of angst, as those with plenty of money can pay meaning that when the estate is finally settled those that did not pay will carry the burden of the interest, can anyone advise or have they come across this problem

 

[twofor1]

The executors have now suggested that any of the benificiaries who can pay their portion of the fair Deal debt will not incur the interest. As this is a debt against the estate.............

No legal expertise whatsoever, so only an opinion.

From what you say your Mother’s wishes are clear, after all debts are paid, her residue is divided equally among her children.

I would be suggesting to the executors that they carry out their duties exactly as your Mother wished, sell the house whenever the issue with the one sibling is sorted, pay all debts from the proceeds, that would include interest if any, and divide the residue equally among her children.

What they are suggesting does not appear to be in keeping with your Mother’s equal for all wishes and very important for executors, it would not be impartial if they were to benefit, and others didn't benefit from this suggestion.

 

[Cathriona]

No legal expertise whatsoever, so only an opinion.

From what you say your Mother’s wishes are clear, after all debts are paid, her residue is divided equally among her children.

I would be suggesting to the executors that they carry out their duties exactly as your Mother wished, sell the house whenever the issue with the one sibling is sorted, pay all debts from the proceeds, that would include interest if any, and divide the residue equally among her children.

What they are suggesting does not appear to be in keeping with your Mother’s equal for all wishes and very important for executors, it would not be impartial if they were to benefit, and others didn't benefit from this suggestion.

 

[Cathriona]

No legal expertise whatsoever, so only an opinion.

From what you say your Mother’s wishes are clear, after all debts are paid, her residue is divided equally among her children.

I would be suggesting to the executors that they carry out their duties exactly as your Mother wished, sell the house whenever the issue with the one sibling is sorted, pay all debts from the proceeds, that would include interest if any, and divide the residue equally among her children.

What they are suggesting does not appear to be in keeping with your Mother’s equal for all wishes and very important for executors, it would not be impartial if they were to benefit, and others didn't benefit from this suggestion.

Thank you for your reply and opinion, it is good to get a view from someone outside the situation which has become very emotional and as I said causing some angst , which should and could have been avoided.