Ex Employee Options with defined benefit pension fund

diceyreilly

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I'm an ex employee of a pension fund as above. Details are as follows:
PRESERVED PENSION ENTITLEMENT
AS AT 17 October 2017
Details

Date of Birth 1963
Date of Joined Scheme 02/1996
Date of leaving 04/2003
Normal Retirement Date (NRD) 2028
Preserved Pension at date of leaving €6,186.00 p.a.
The preserved pension at date of leaving has been re-valued in line with the terms that you left the company and the revaluation percentages prescribed by the Minister for Social Protection under the provisions of the Pensions Act 1990
Nominal impact, of the annual Government
Pensions Levies applied to date (2011 to 2015 Incl.) €112.00 p.a.
Current value of your preserved pension (Payable at NRD) €6,074.00 p.a.
A dependant’s pension of 50% of the member’s pension is automatically payable to the spouse to whom a member was married at date of death and date of leaving service.
Please note that the above figures do not take into account any pending Pensions Adjustment Orders that may be applicable.
You have the option of leaving your benefits preserved in the Pension Fund until your Normal Retirement Age or you may transfer them to another approved pension arrangement or to an approved insurance policy or bond.
Current transfer value as at 17 October 2017 €74,905.00
On Retirement, your pension will increase in line with CPI to a maximum of 5% per annum. There is an overriding provision that the cumulative increases granted since retirement cannot be greater than the increase in inflation.
The scheme is funded by contributions paid by the employer and members. Actuarial advice will have been obtained when setting those contributions. However, there is no guarantee that the scheme will have sufficient funds to pay the benefits promised. It is therefore possible that the benefits payable under the scheme may have to be reduced. If the scheme is wound up and there is a deficit, the employer may not be under an obligation to fund the deficit or, even if the employer is under such an obligation, the employer may not be in a position to fund the deficit.
Notes:
The trustees updated in September 2015 that as at 30 June 2015 the funding level was at 92% excluding the Funding Standard Reserve or 84% including the F.S.R.
It aims to restore to the Funding Standard by end 2020 by:
33.7% of defined benefit pensionable salary roll.
An added fixed lump sum of €2 million each year
The Funds assets will be transferred from equities to long dated bonds.


My Queries on this Pension:
I have been told by a broker that I can transfer to a Personal Retirement Bond allowing me to receive a tax free lump sum of 25% of approx.€74905 and a monthly gross income of approx €190 per month.
or
Should I not touch pension till normal retirement age as above?
On the basis of the 2015 update should I leave as is till after 2020 when the extra funds will be fully absorbed.
I've heard other pension funds within the company have offered an "uplift" to their members transfer value sometimes doubling the amount and should I write to look for an uplift?
Have the trustees decided to meet targets to restore to Funding Standard instead of uplifting transfer values to members to allow them transfer out of the fund?
Apologies if this is long winded but knowledge of this area is limited and I appreciate any comments.
 
How solid is the fund, is it likely to be there when you come to 65.

As you are over 50 you may be able to get a discounted pension now, that would be my suggestion, apply to the Trustees for early retirement, that will make you a pensioner rather than a deferred member and therefore in a stronger position were the fund to be wound up.

Money now albeit reduced beats money in the future when you may not be here at all.
 
Cheers Palefinder you've confirmed what I was thinking. Just to clarify if I apply for early retirement with my present Pension fund will I be able to avail of the 25% lump sum and the monthly income or do I have to transfer to another PRB. Thanks again.
 
Cheers Palefinder you've confirmed what I was thinking.

Hi Diceyreilly,

Before you press the "GO" button, thought I would wade in with an alternate view. The transfer value quoted here (presumably the standard transfer value, i.e. neither reduced or enhanced) looks like poor value.

It's very hard to be absolute on these things - especially as we do not know lots of the points of detail - but as a general rule, it is recognised that the transfer value basis in Ireland is extremely weak (i.e. representing poor value to the member).

Examples of the type of considerations that would negate (to varying degrees) the above (general) advice would be if you had specific:
- Concerns about the sponsoring employer;
- Concerns regarding health; or
- Urgent need for cash

Good luck with your deliberations.


DM
 
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The Trustees are unlikely ( if doing job properly) to grant you an early retirement within the scheme as that will give you priority as a member in payment over other members.
Anyway, in such case your tax free amount would be based on the years of service rule, rather than 25% lump sum basis.

I think the 190/mth number is payable from 65, not now ??

Note that your transfer value will automatically increase within the scheme each year , by around 6.5% until 55 and then by a slightly lower amount each year to 65. When you reach 65, your cost to the fund increases by a big number maybe another 20% as you will be valued on an annuity buyout basis. So there is merit is considering to wait a bit to transfer out at a possible higher value. This all of course is before considering what happens with the funding level adjustment. Your scheme data is 2 years old.

For transfer out the value is never a "fair" value even if there was no funding deficit. It's based on rates determined by the Dept of Social Protection that bear no relation to reality and the cost of buying a guaranteed pension. To get an idea, you could ask your broker what it would cost to buy your deferred pension (payable at 65) today.
 
Note that your transfer value will automatically increase within the scheme each year , by around 6.5% until 55 and then by a slightly lower amount each year to 65. QUOTE]

Joe,

For the craic, I looked into the TV basis before making my comments.

http://www.pensionsauthority.ie/en/...tion_34_of_the_Pensions_Act_1990_Oct_2016.pdf

My reading of the attached differs to what you have stated. It seems to me that within 10 years of retirement, a market value adjustment (MVA) comes in to play which, in current market conditions, means that the rate of increase in the TV is actually greater post 55 than pre 55. Do you concur?


DM
 
Well spotted Dan. Been away from pensions for a while. Also notice now that discount rate has moved to 6% which is nice to see. It was 7.25% not so long ago.
 
Jeepers Joe

What are you doing?........no one ever agrees with me;)
 
IF your scheme is fully funded you can apply for an early pension which will be discounted, you will get this as the fund is fully funded.

Do not transfer out.
 
It is near on impossible to replicate the guaranteed benefits in a DB scheme by transferring out. The calculations on the transfer value are too skewed.

When would it be a good idea to take a transfer value?
  1. The scheme isn't doing well and you think it won't be around by retirement
  2. You want to retire early and are happy to take a lower amount in lieu of this

But make sure you do your homework before making a decision.

Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie
 
Thanks to everyone so far and any other comments are welcome. If the company is contributing €2 million per annum to 2020 to bring scheme within funding rules maybe that is the time to reevaluate. I will enquire about early retirement option but also if there is a possibility of an "uplift" on the figures quoted above. Worth a try anyway.
 
Well spotted Dan. Been away from pensions for a while. Also notice now that discount rate has moved to 6% which is nice to see. It was 7.25% not so long ago.
so you can "earn" 6% guaranteed on your deferred pension's TV that's a good return in present climate
 
I'm an ex employee of a pension fund as above. Details are as follows:
PRESERVED PENSION ENTITLEMENT
AS AT 17 October 2017 UPDATED FIGURES 26th 11TH 2018 BELOW
Details

Date of Birth 1963
Date of Joined Scheme 02/1996
Date of leaving 04/2003
Normal Retirement Date (NRD) 2028
Preserved Pension at date of leaving €6,186.00 p.a. 26th 11th 2018 €4920 p.a.
The preserved pension at date of leaving has been re-valued in line with the terms that you left the company and the revaluation percentages prescribed by the Minister for Social Protection under the provisions of the Pensions Act 1990
Nominal impact, of the annual Government
Pensions Levies applied to date (2011 to 2015 Incl.) €112.00 p.a.
Current value of your preserved pension (Payable at NRD) €6,074.00 p.a. 26th 11th 2018 €6098 p.a.
A dependant’s pension of 50% of the member’s pension is automatically payable to the spouse to whom a member was married at date of death and date of leaving service.
Please note that the above figures do not take into account any pending Pensions Adjustment Orders that may be applicable.
You have the option of leaving your benefits preserved in the Pension Fund until your Normal Retirement Age or you may transfer them to another approved pension arrangement or to an approved insurance policy or bond.
Current transfer value as at 17 October 2017 €74,905.00 26th 11th 2018 €82809
On Retirement, your pension will increase in line with CPI to a maximum of 5% per annum. There is an overriding provision that the cumulative increases granted since retirement cannot be greater than the increase in inflation.
The scheme is funded by contributions paid by the employer and members. Actuarial advice will have been obtained when setting those contributions. However, there is no guarantee that the scheme will have sufficient funds to pay the benefits promised. It is therefore possible that the benefits payable under the scheme may have to be reduced. If the scheme is wound up and there is a deficit, the employer may not be under an obligation to fund the deficit or, even if the employer is under such an obligation, the employer may not be in a position to fund the deficit.
Notes:
The trustees updated in September 2015 that as at 30 June 2015 the funding level was at 92% excluding the Funding Standard Reserve or 84% including the F.S.R.
It aims to restore to the Funding Standard by end 2020 by:
33.7% of defined benefit pensionable salary roll.
An added fixed lump sum of €2 million each year
The Funds assets will be transferred from equities to long dated bonds.


My Queries on this Pension:
Should I not touch pension till normal retirement age as above?
On the basis of the 2015 update should I leave as is till after 2020 when the extra funds will be fully absorbed.
I've heard other pension funds within the company have offered an "uplift" to their members transfer value sometimes doubling the amount and should I write to look for an uplift? NO UPLIFT
Have the trustees decided to meet targets to restore to Funding Standard instead of uplifting transfer values to members to allow them transfer out of the fund?
I have received an update of position as at 26th 11th 2018 valid to 15th 02nd 2019.
I was surprised of the increase in transfer value of €7904 (9.55%) is this mainly as a result of the €2 million added per year up to 2020.
I have been told that I could "cash in" fund take 25% tax free (€20702) and the balance (€62107) taxed at my current rate 40% plus USC etc and is this true.
Am I right in thinking if Im now within 10 years of retirement the present funds moved into safer lower risk/increasing investments and I shouldn't expect increases as seen in the past year.
As stated last year if I transfer into an ARF/AMRF take 25% €20702 and income of €210 gross does this look reasonable return.
Apologies if this is long winded but knowledge of this area is limited and I appreciate any comments.
 
Can anyone outline what the certain criteria to be met to take as a taxable lump sum subject to PAYE and if eligible would this income be subject to USC etc.Thanks.
Under the Tax & Pension Laws of Ireland you have a number of options? You will usually be able to take part or all of your lump sum as Tax Free Cash. Then, provided you meet certain criteria, you can use the remainder of your retirement fund in the following ways:

  • Buy an annuity – a regular guaranteed income for the rest of your life
  • Re-invest it in an Approved Retirement Fund (ARF) and/or an Approved Minimum Retirement Fund (AMRF)
  • Take as a taxable cash lump sum subject to PAYE
 
diceyreilly,
The scenario you outlined is applicable to a Defined Contribution (DC) scheme.
So with the total fund you can:
- take 25% as a retirement lump sum, first €200,000 tax free and next €300,000 taxable at 20%
- if you do not have a guaranteed pension income of at least €12,700 (eg State Pension or Occupational Pension), then the first €63,500 must be invested into an AMRF
- any balance can be:
- used to buy an annuity
- invested into an ARF
- taken as fully taxable income in one sum, but subject to a Income Tax and USC.
 
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