EU reaches agreement on ‘landmark’ crypto rules

[tecate]

Ready any time you want to tell us where you're regurgitating this partisan take from because its not coming from your own review.

Coinbase Earn is a staking product, not a stalking product. I thought it was a typo but four typos?

Can you point us to the online presence of the "my legal pals tell me" guy?

 

[letitroll]

Sweet Jesús - I'm not wading into that nonsense.

1. You're not a securities lawyer.
2. You referred to 'my legal pals tell me'. You're paying heed to some clown online that shares your partisan view on crypto. And now you won't cite whatever it is they're putting out there. Evidently, they lack credibility - just like you. There's nothing to discuss.

If your a person of intelligence, experience and go the primary sources and cant cite yourself......who can you cite?.....do you always require @tecate for example a weatherman to tell you what way the wind is blowing? Read the SEC vs. Ripple verdict...what I've told you is all in there.

I slightly dox myself and you should know that I work in the financial services industry in the US and Europe......it's my job to understand this stuff.....as everybody worries constantly about breaking any laws/regulations....and are finely attuned to what constitutes misrepresentations (cue @tecate painting me as an indsutry shill worried about my job being destroyed by blockchain, don't give me a free laugh on Sunday )

You'd be well advised to read my posts a few times......I know its counter to the information your picking up in your crypto media filter bubble but I can assure you it's very accurate.....Pomp, Mike Novogratz, the Winklevoss's, anon twitter accounts that nobody who's who's on....seem to be your 'sources'.

I'll take it as a badge of honor that given your penchant for deep deep point by point post defences on here.....that you've likely struggled to tackle the points I've raised above........as I consider the points I've made on foot of Torres and recent SEC action...to be 'airtight'....and I dont say that lightly.........the recent cases by the SEC and complaints have quite clearly deconstructed the typical crypto structure and successfully applied existing laws on the books and been successful.....Ripple labs GUILTY of XRP security fraud......the SEC is learning too how to build these cases.....the failure to secure a guilty verdict on the secondary sale piece won't be repeated again.....in my posts above I've explained how they would secure a victory next time.....by (1) naming Ripple/F-Exchange as related parties (2) or just cleanly going after the exchange separately on XRP charges and go after Ripple for the initial ITO. The living the basement moment at the heart of every token sale...chicken and eggs is real.....nobody can buy a token, if they dont know it exists, the act of letting people know about it and what it can do currently and most importantly what it will do in the FUTURE....is an act of securities fraud.....of course there is a legitimate path here.....every token issuer prior to ITO could go to the SEC and register with a RegD filing or an S-1 IPO prospectus....but they dont want to do that.....too much hassle...too much cost...and it exposes the issuer to a huge swathe of legal regulations......it would be a wonderfully profitable world if every bank, pension fund, hedge fund could fire their lawyers and compliance department.....my 'legal pals'...would be out of the job.....but my legal pals exist to ensure the letter of the law is being followed.....and these crypto scammers of course dont want to get bogged down in that.......selling 01010101010101's on the back of ONE crypto lawyer issuing you an opinion in letter that what your selling isnt a security.......is WAY cheaper than getting a TEAM of lawyers on staff + a compliance department etc etc. and when it comes to fraud of course you dont want lawyers around watching you....and you certainly don't want securities regulation books laying around......you want PLAUSIBLE DENIABILITY and total FREEDOM and FLEXIBILTY to perpetuate your scheme and enrich yourself.

Dont be confused by the crypto media machine......the XRP 'not a security' in secondary sales win.....is one of the cleanest cut examples of pyrrhic victory I've ever seen. I expect the Coinbase leadership team to merrily merrily merrily sell their Coinbase shares into this rally cause behind close doors they are dead men walking and they know it. Forget the noise, watch how Brian Armstrong liquidates his coinbase shares....which through the beauty of 1920's securities laws.... insiders in public companies have disclosure requirements.....and Brian needs to report sales within two days on a Form4.....I always think about the world where Form4's existed in crypto....you'd see how many of these Crypto 'Builder' Kings, zealots & whales....are really just dumping the tokens on the back of every press release pump......like that Crypto Beach El Salvador nonsense.

 

[tecate]

If your a person of intelligence, experience and go the primary sources and cant cite yourself......who can you cite?.....do you always require @tecate for example a weatherman to tell you what way the wind is blowing? Read the SEC vs. Ripple verdict...what I've told you is all in there.

Absolute nonsense. You're trying to cover your tracks now. You referred to your 'legal pals' - BS. You're regurgitating some online source or other. There's nothing wrong with that but you are a tad short on confidence when you can't cite that info directly. Clearly, they lack credibility. And maybe you work in finance but you know diddly squat about crypto on a professional level. Don't tell fibs. If you were anyway close to it there's no way you'd be referring to Coinbase Earn as a stalking product.

As part of the smokescreen you go on the attack, giving a list of folks that you say I've cited. If that's true (it's not) - then post the links. You also suggest that I've cited anonymous twitter accounts. I've cited more material than anyone here but I'm pretty confident you'll be hard pressed to find a citation I've provided to an anon twitter account. More lies.

 

[letitroll]

Coinbase Earn is a staking product, not a stalking product. I thought it was a typo but four typos?

Can you point us to the online presence of the "my legal pals tell me" guy?

Resorting to jeering my typos is what I would expect when you cant tackle my arguments on the facts. It was a typo - banging these knowledge bombs out for you on a phone mainly.

Dont need legal pals on the STAKING piece..and dont need a weatherman to know which the wind blows either.....guess you do its a dangerous game looking for others to tell you what to think about something be careful........the staking piece is common knowledge.....I'm surprised that as askaboutmoney's resident crypto expert you dont seem to be up to date on this stuff and certainly in a debate on this stuff bringing up STAKING as your one rebuttals to my points.....is such poor strategy.....that its somewhat worrying.

Now for my example:

Kraken, threw in the towel on its defense of staking as NOT a registered security offering months ago......cause it so clearly is there was no point taking it court.....this part of the SEC is a slam dunk case against Coin.......remember howey?.....it's a reasonable expectation of profits through the endeavours of others.....Coinbase runs the node for you cause its hard....it takes custody of your crypto and it lends it out...and collects the 'interest' minus a fee......you provide a service like this akin to depositing cash, paying interest and lending the cash to others and taking a fee.....you either need to be REGISTERED as a bank, insurance company, ETF or money market fund.....you cant be nothing as Coinbase and all of crypto loves to be but pretends like they are begging for regulatory clarity......when all they are really doing is playing fake and illegal regulatory arbitrage behind a veil of the 'good guys'........my guess if your asking is that staking products are unregistered exchange traded money market funds if you want my LEGAL opinion....what Coinbase is doing is slam dunk ilegal.

Now you might say - they'll pay a fine like Kraken no big deal..live to fight another day, JP Morgan pays fines all the time, cost of doing business...not so in the SEC vs. Kraken case it was narrowly focused solely on staking.....it was case designed to surgically amputate this service away from Kraken and set a legal precedent......it was not designed too kill Kraken.......the SEC vs. Coinbase however:

The Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) has charged Coinbase with the following violations:

• Operating its crypto asset trading platform as an unregistered national securities exchange, broker, and clearing agency
• Failing to register the offer and sale of its crypto asset staking-as-a-service program
• Offering an unregistered security to the public via their staking-as-a-service program

The case is so expansive & the charges so heainous that the SEC case is designed as an extinction level event for the target of the charges i.e. Coinbase & Binance.....its over for them.....trust me on that one.....like bed, bath & beyond.....somebody might buy the Coinbase name & domain name out of bankruptcy...but it wont be THIS version of Coinbase....ala Overstock & bed, bath and beyond.......the legal entity & participants as constructed today are dead dead meat.

Kraken to Discontinue Unregistered Offer and Sale of Crypto Asset Staking-As-A-Service Program and Pay $30 Million to Settle SEC Charges​

https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2023-25

i look forward to popping back, as I always do at important moments.....on the cryptos journey to the graveyard......always fun talking to you @tecate your the most thorough of the crypto cultists I interact with online.....and I always appreciate your view points........I consider them to be acts of mental gymnastics most of the time but impressive nonetheless.

Lets end this interaction for now on something you might like and I've evolved my thinking on.

Bitcoin is a commodity.....people should be allowed to buy it if they wish.....pure play BTC brokers should be legally allowed to operate buying/selling & custodying it....if the spot market one day gets sufficiently tidied up (highly unlikely IMO).....they should even allow a spot BTC ETF.

The problem is without the engine room of illegal token offerings pulling people into the space.....BTC is never getting back to $69k quite the opposite......dont you get it the MLM, ponzis, pyramids & scams in the EU and the USA.....were the locomotion pulling BTC up to $69k......dont waste the rest of your life dreaming of Nov 12th, 2021 (BTC ATH) coming back again....your a smart guy, get out there and apply that intellect and energy to something productive.

Chat soon @tecate ......may the force of Satoshi be with you over these coming years....it's gonna be rough (already has been).

 

[letitroll]

As part of the smokescreen you go on the attack, giving a list of folks that you say I've cited. If that's true (it's not) - then post the links. You also suggest that I've cited anonymous twitter accounts. I've cited more material than anyone here but I'm pretty confident you'll be hard pressed to find a citation I've provided to an anon twitter account. More lies.

You dont need a weatherman to know which the wind blows....my main cite is this....just read the case finding:
https://www.nysd.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/2023-07/SEC vs Ripple 7-13-23.pdf

See you during the next crypto milestone event.

 

[tecate]

Resorting to jeering my typos is what I would expect

You maintain that you made the same typo four times? Whatever.
Another example that you're nowhere near crypto. You prophesized that crypto projects would end up going to El Salvador. You have no notion what's going on. There are no 'crypto' projects in El Salvador. However, there are Bitcoin-centric start-ups establishing themselves down there. El Salvador is bitcoin-friendly, not crypto-friendly.

when you cant tackle my arguments on the facts.

You're not a securities lawyer. You have zero credibility in this area. You alluded to working in finance. If you're going to use that as backing for your views here, you'll have to dox yourself entirely. 'Working in finance' is a broad church.

Dont need legal pals on the STAKING piece

You weren't talking about 'staking' when you name dropped your 'legal pals said' nonsense. You used that as clout but when called on it, you won't cite the source.

.I'm surprised that as askaboutmoney's resident crypto expert you dont seem to be up to date on this stuff

I'm not a 'resident crypto expert' (as I've always pointed out). I have a modicum of humility, something that's entirely lacking from your big phat claims expressed in the absolute sense on securities law.

Now for my example:

Yes, shift the goal posts to the case where the SEC got a win. Nobody was talking about Kraken. Nobody was talking about Coinbase either. The subject at hand was SEC vs. Ripple.

BTC is never getting back to $67,617. quite the opposite.

I'm just going to let that stand on its own rickety legs right there.

dont you get it the MLM, ponzis, pyramids & scams in the EU and the USA.....were the locomotion pulling BTC up to $67,617.

You have zero clue what you're talking about. If it wasn't for 'crypto' BTC would have blown through $100K. People who thought they had bought BTC hadn't (as some of the wayward centralized platforms were not even buying it on their behalf).

You dont need a weatherman to know which the wind blows....my main cite is this....just read the case finding:
https://www.nysd.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/2023-07/SEC vs Ripple 7-13-23.pdf

That was a convenient pivot once I had called you on your 'legal pals' nonsense.

Like I said two years ago....in my last nostradamus prediction....that has turned out to be correct btw

FFS. It was already clear that there was a move being taken by the Biden Admin against crypto. Stop taking credit for something you read online, while getting the actual prediction 'Bitcoin would unravel' wrong. (We have had Credit Suisse and a plethora of US regional banks unravel though).

I'll end with this. There are many things that I'd like to express on 'crypto' and on regulation and what needs to happen or change. There are many criticisms I have in relation to actors within 'crypto'. But I don't feel that a grown up conversation can be had here in that regard. The attitude - as always - is shut it all out without any greater nuance/consideration. That's been the issue with Bitcoin and 'crypto's' leading critics also. They can't serve a useful purpose in being critics when from the outset, they're driven by the desire to stamp it out entirely rather than a desire to have equitably functioning markets and regulation in place.

 

[kenr2022]

tecate, I hope you are having a pleasant day

 

[tecate]

tecate, I hope you are having a pleasant day

Thanks! There have been plenty of god awful days and good days along the way - and I'm sure there will be plenty more of both...but you're right - it's certainly one more https://archive.is/xFvgA (milestone event) unlocked. ETF approval will bring with it a whole set of new challenges also - so plenty of twists n' turns ahead still.

 

[letitroll]

The BTC dream died yesterday - and the coiners celebrated….cause I guess ‘number goes up’ is more important than all the dencentralized and permissionless talk.

BlackRock, US government monitorship of Binance, ETF wrapper, deep KYC/AML surveillance of the network, Coinbase a US company custodying everything onshore…suspicious activity reporting (SARs)….IRS reporting……..BTC might as well be the swift payment system now.

Your a true believer @tecate deep down you know what’s happened here….its a betrayal of Satoshis vision of a currency outside the control of the authorities ….this is a takeover of BTC by the US authorities…and the irony is many supposed coiners cheered it on.

Reminds me of the end of 1984 when Winston breaks and learns to love Big Brother. It’s sad - I really expected more from the ‘community’ but turns out it only took the promise of some fiat money to make BTC the US’s concubine.

He gazed up at the enormous face. Forty years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark moustache. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother.

George Orwell, 1984

 

[tecate]

In fairness, this comes across as pure salt. This is the alternative investments section of the board is it not? And by and large, the subject is being approached from an investments perspective. You have zero interest in decentralization - so why on earth would you start warning us today about the ills of BlackRock!?

The main focus of the debate has been on whether or not sustained value can be contained within bitcoin. You want to shift that over to a consideration of what you term "Satoshi's vision." Really? When you couldn't give a toss about any of that - but I guess its convenient.

Bitcoin is a decentralized asset. It was always going to be taken on board by Wall Street. Bitcoin doesn't decide who can or can't use it. So you want to talk about something that you have no interest in at all? Fine. I stated on numerous occasions that BlackRock was not to be trusted, that Wall Street was and is not to be trusted. Now when it suits you, you're on board with that with your George Orwell vibes! lol So George Orwell, you now recognize the ills of the conventional system all of a sudden? I thought that bitcoin and anyone connected with it were the sole purveyors of all that's wrong in the world? Where will I see the tomes you have written on the dangers of Wall Street and of its many dastardly deeds?

Bitcoin means different things to different people. Many will be happy with it as a Wall Street product. I see some upside and some risk with that development (while noting that the development was at all times an inevitability). Can Wall Street do to Bitcoin what it has done to the gold market (in manipulating the bejaysus out of it)? They're definitely going to have a go! We know from the really low fees they've set that they will monetize in the usual Wall Street way (re-hypothecation). Will they get caught with their pants down? The nature of the asset is entirely different to Gold. It's auditable - and its settled in real time. So its quite possible that they will.

I do have greater hopes for various use cases to be continued to be pursued with regard to Bitcoin. You're right about that. Did those hopes die today? Absolutely not. Still all to play for and while today brings with it new risks and challenges, it also brings upside and opportunity too (both from an 'alternative investments' perspective and in terms of greater adoption).

 

[letitroll]

I do have greater hopes for various use cases to be pursued with regard to Bitcoin. You're right about that.

BTC might as well be USD now.....various three letter US agencies and Wall St. elites are driving the bus now......and they'd like your hopes to take a seat down the back of that metaphorical bus & stay quiet. They're the captain now.

 

[tecate]

BTC might as well be USD now.....various three letter US agencies and Wall St. elites are driving the bus now......and they'd like your hopes to take a seat down the back of that metaphorical bus & stay quiet. They're the captain now.

lol. Let me guess - they're going to get their own guys on the board of Bitcoin, Inc., right? Will Larry Fink or Jamie Dimon be named the new Bitcoin CEO?

 

[time to plan]

I thought that bitcoin and anyone connected with it were the sole purveyors of all that's wrong in the world?

Why would you think that when nobody has made such a claim or inference?

 

[tecate]

Why would you think that when nobody has made such a claim or inference?

Oh, I dunno, just a hunch (or the total lack of a balanced discussion of the matter).

@letitroll : I don't recall any mention of a spot bitcoin ETF in your original thesis on the last bull market ATH price never being reached again. I believe you said that bitcoin wouldn't survive because the powers that be would shut it down and bitcoin couldn't possibly survive in a high interest rate environment.

 

[time to plan]

Oh, I dunno, just a hunch (or the total lack of a balanced discussion of the matter).

I don't recall any mention of a spot bitcoin ETF in your original thesis on the last bull market ATH price never being reached again. I believe you said that bitcoin wouldn't survive because the powers that be would shut it down and bitcoin couldn't possibly survive in a high interest rate environment.

 

[time to plan]

It is no surprise that you believe something completely false.

 

[BTC-ETF]

Some of us saw this day arriving.

 

[tecate]

It is no surprise that you believe something completely false.

It's no surprise to me that in all that I put to you, that's all you've chosen to run with. And beyond that I disagree. There has been zero balance to your take on this subject.

 

[time to plan]

It's no surprise to me that in all that I put to you, that's all you've chosen to run with. And beyond that I disagree. There has been zero balance to your take on this subject.

But why do you believe I said that bitcoin wouldn't survive because the powers that be would shut it down and bitcoin couldn't possibly survive in a high interest rate environment?

 

[tecate]

@letitroll : I don't recall any mention of a spot bitcoin ETF in your original thesis on the last bull market ATH price never being reached again. I believe you said that bitcoin wouldn't survive because the powers that be would shut it down and bitcoin couldn't possibly survive in a high interest rate environment.