Duke of Marmalade
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It must be a very exciting life to be on a bitcoin salary or contract.
EU reaches agreement on ‘landmark’ crypto rules
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Paul O Mahoney
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I read today in the FT that the SEC has prevented some Bitcoin Trust, Grayscale apparently $40bn valuation, in the US becoming an EFT for the second time , citing " the lack of client protection and transparency " to paraphrase.
If Bitcoin or its participants think that its revolutionary why are they asking for it to be traded along side stocks.
Apparently Grayscale has thrown the teddy out of the pram saying that its " another attack on an independent financial product " but who wants to like the other financial products.
The analysis by the FT was stark, saying in brief " crypto has a liquidity issue and the mask of uniqueness is melting " .
A few pages later another story says that crypto collapsing isn't going to cause "contagion " that would effect the main financial system as most central banks view the recent " crypto collapse " as a natural occurrence of a bubble asset and they had already put controls in place many years ago.
So, looks like it's not revolutionary and won't bring down the financial system, based on todays FT
Today's FT also came a magazine and one story of someone who lost 70k in crypto has decided to not invest in it again as his losses were equal to his annual salary.
If Bitcoin or its participants think that its revolutionary why are they asking for it to be traded along side stocks.
Apparently Grayscale has thrown the teddy out of the pram saying that its " another attack on an independent financial product " but who wants to like the other financial products.
The analysis by the FT was stark, saying in brief " crypto has a liquidity issue and the mask of uniqueness is melting " .
A few pages later another story says that crypto collapsing isn't going to cause "contagion " that would effect the main financial system as most central banks view the recent " crypto collapse " as a natural occurrence of a bubble asset and they had already put controls in place many years ago.
So, looks like it's not revolutionary and won't bring down the financial system, based on todays FT
Today's FT also came a magazine and one story of someone who lost 70k in crypto has decided to not invest in it again as his losses were equal to his annual salary.
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DazedInPontoon
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Bitcoin holds no opinion at all since it's just software, but as one of the participants I can say I would like it to be trade-able in as many ways as possible. The reasons cited for wanting a bitcoin ETF are generally twofold, firstly some people want exposure to it but do not want to hold it directly, secondly certain regulatory frameworks make it difficult to hold bitcoin directly such as tax advantaged pension accounts or wealth managers investing on behalf of their clients.
There are actually plenty of bitcoin participants who are indifferent or even against vehicles like the ETF because it introduces a counter party which is against the spirit of it.
Paul O Mahoney
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I would counter a say Bitcoin holds nothing. It's not an asset of any description and most including the Chinese agree.
I fear the revolution is over and the rebuilding is going to take time.
Can you shed light on the analysis that all cryptos are facing liquidity issues, or is this another " slight " against them. Most are now suffering huge losses and this is apparently going to continue.
Central Banks , the SEC seem to think its holding a pair of 2s while the cards indicate a royal flush is on the table, waiting for the all in and there's no 2s on the flop.
DazedInPontoon
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I don't even know what it means for a cryptocurrency like bitcoin to face a liquidity issue?
What are facing liquidity issues are *companies*, some of them were acting like banks taking deposits from customers, offering them returns and then attempting to profit by using the funds to earn even more than they promised to pay out - either by loaning it out at higher rates or by "investing" it in what were typically ventures in other crypto companies. This is all a complete ****show and it's unwinding day by day. Some of these companies were using bitcoin as collateral and we're thus getting forced selling of that as it all unwinds, which drives down the bitcoin price.
There's a fairly in-depth account by someone who knows their stuff here if you want a deeper read: https://blog.bitmex.com/number-three/
Looks like it will for these companies in the short term. Celsius and the 3AC hedge fund seem to be screwed, Block-fi might be in trouble. Voyager Digital is another one that just today has frozen withdrawals.
You've lost me on this poker analogy I'm afraid.
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Paul O Mahoney
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And you cannot see the connection that " companies " that are primarily crypto backed not being able to raise funding as a non issue?
Most of these companies have trading arms that essentially dictate the price of bitcoin et al, if Bitcoin etc cannot be traded how can it be traded or indeed valued?
When there are more questions than answers about anything it should indicate that there's something wrong.
All cryptos seem to show their value in real currency, why is that? If this was truly a revolutionary currency it would stand on it's own value and be used to buy stuff.....but it doesn't do that, it's a bubble with nothing to shore it up except hype and lies.
It also suffers from snowflake mentality it can't be questioned without igniting its hair in all places.
Companies are declared " insolvent " when its net liabilities are greater than its assets and since Crypto isn't an asset in any form the liability section of its balance sheet represents the losses that people will suffer.
I personally can't wait for a discovery channel series " Crypto Rush" where the "mining" Bitcoin, is someone is at a desk but just didn't make the cut, and him blaming his parents, for not preparing him for the reality of nonsense.
For a revolutionary currency it really hasn't changed anything and won't.
Listening to claptrap and diatribe about its " potential " is now tiresome and classic rabbit hole hyperbole.
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DCAing into BTC every month and starting that process in the bear market? You'll get no complaints from me Duke - but if you're more comfortable with Yuan, you should stick with that.
Most who? Governments and central bankers? Good luck!
@Duke - you'll have a travelling companion for the CCP shindig in Beijing - well done.
What revolution precisely is it that you have in mind? You mean choice? lol
Hardly makes sense to broaden discussion here to "all cryptos". However, just so that you're aware Bitcoin is not facing any "liquidity crisis". Centralized third party entities - who have leveraged up to the gills - have a liquidity crisis. Those positions are being unwound right now. There are no bailouts in crypto - and so, the unwind will be swift (and painful for those involved). This process hurts but it cures. I believe that you'll see better risk management within the ecosystem going forward.
It's far from ideal but in no way does it tarnish the fundamentals of Bitcoin itself. If they're illiquid and insolvent, they'll be cleared out pretty rapidly. This is not the fiat system - there are no bailouts or buyers of last resort. It's not the Japanese Yen where the Japs are getting high on their own supply (buying over 50% of their own bonds, with the currency having tanked by 35%).
When cause for complaint is all that the objective is and the last thing that is sought are answers, enough said.
wtf are you talking about Paul? You want to seek out an exchange rate for Bitcoin, Yen, Euro to USD, you can. That's up you to you. If what you're asking is why isn't Bitcoin a unit of account? - because it doesn't put a gun to people's heads and coerce them into using it- as happens with failing fiat currencies. However, it is there as a choice should anyone want to use it rather than be forced to use it.
Framing a certain narrative, I see. There is only one person over the course of 5 years of discussion here who has described Bitcoin as a "revolutionary currency" here. It doesn't have to be a unit of account to be successful.
lol - ok, Paul - so tell me - it's done for, right? Bitcoin is dead, right? That's what you're saying?
Bitcoin's fundamentals are intact - regardless what detractors like you or leveraged traders say or do.
I think you'll find it lacks a better class of critic.
The current batch don't cut the mustard.You can keep howling into the night that 'cryptocurrencies are not assets' all you want Paul. They've been recognized as such by a whole host of recognized entities. Other than that, what you seem to be saying is that if you either 'trade' or invest in a digital asset, you could realise a gain or a loss upon selling the asset. Very informative.
Yeah, this seems to be the naysayers wet dream. I suppose if there was such a discovery channel series on folks that had invested in tech stocks over the last few months and lost 80%, that wouldn't get your rocks off at all, right? And we wouldn't be hoping that they'd be squealing for mercy, right? lol
Yeah, mention number 4 of "revolutionary currency" - definitely not trying to frame a certain narrative. Bitcoin is a tool grounded in tech with monetary and financial implications. You want to use it - do. You don't fine (and now move along). It doesn't give a fiddlers what you think.
You should really get together with Paul 'fax machine' Krugman. He certainly had a way with mouthing off about something that he had no idea about - and that he was arrogant enough to 'call' before its potential had even started to be realised. I would respect someone saying that they think it's unlikely that there will be any further potential but people who speak arrogantly in absolutes lack intelligence - and are not entitled to that respect.
Other than that, Paul - don't feel that anyone is keeping you if it's all too tiresome for you.
Let me help you with that. (Goldman) Gary Gensler as Chair of the SEC is holding crypto hostage simply because he wants to toe the line set by Liz Warren in her anti-crypto crusade - and get the Treasury Secretary gig in return, quid pro quo. And that is the reason why he isn't protecting investors (which is precisely what the SECs role is supposed to be). He won't approve a spot Bitcoin product but get this - he's happy to approve a futures product. You know why? because his former Wall Street chums can clock up the fees on rolling over futures contracts.
It's the very same rationale why he won't clarify for crypto startups and projects what is a commodity and what is a security! He says that its clear which is which but he/they will refuse to tell you - but they'll look to sue you later - knowing that most entities can't spend the time or money on that. He says that the SECs door is open - and when anyone turns up, they're turned away ( as happened with Coinbase and others).
Meanwhile, the SEC has bitten off more than it can chew in suing Ripple - and it looks like it will have its ass handed to it - in a case that unearths blatant corruption.
There's that 'revolutionary' word again. I believe that's mention no. 6.
Participants in the conventional markets want access to crypto - and still be compliant with the spaghetti junction of regulatory rules that are in place - and remain compliant within that world. An ETF is the ideal product for them to access Bitcoin. There are different stakeholders within Bitcoin - with differing needs.
Grayscale probably has no choice but to sue Goldman Gary and the SEC right now - or be sued in turn by investors - who are caught up in a Trust-based product that has traded at a premium to spot price and more recently at a large discount to spot price. Interestingly, if the SEC had done its job and approved a spot ETF, the likes of Three Arrows Capital (3AC) wouldn't have gotten caught up with the cash n carry arbitrage trade on Grayscale (not that I have any sympathy for 3AC either).
Close but no cigar. Crypto lenders and hedge funds that have gorged on leverage are having their asses handed to them (with collateral damage for those caught up with them too - and for the market as a whole as far as price action is concerned). There are no bailouts in crypto - Mr Market is already unwinding this sh{tshow There may be buyouts but so long as there are no bailouts, then the pain getting served out will cure this ill. Bitcoin's fundamentals remain intact - and unchanged by this greed-induced nonsense.
Crypto as it stands today is not of a size for anyone to be concerned about contagion.
Winner winner, chicken dinner! Mention no. 7 for "revolutionary". Who said anything about bringing down the financial system? There are 5 years worth of discussions on the subject here on AAM. Provide a link to anyone who ever suggested they wanted to 'bring down the financial system'? You'll be at a loss (in the same way as as you were at a loss when you suggested I was lying - and couldn't back that up either).
If their audience is the likes of you ( which invariably it is), that's precisely what they will put in front of you because you will lap it up. But it would be a cold day in hell before they would run a similar article on someone who lost 70k in tech stocks in the past 6 months and has decided not to invest in them again as their losses were equal to their annual salary.
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It's not a case of revolution or rebellion. It's simply software - and a tool with a different set of characteristics and features than what's already in the toolbox. If anyone doesn't have a use case for it, then of course - don't use it. Be aware of what it brings to the table and use it if circumstances change and a need arises.
And yet, if you move 100 euro of value from Ireland to a developing country, will it be worth 100 euro on arrival? Last year, I contracted to a North American company and the only way for them to effect payment was through a third party financial services company that took the equivalent of a weeks pay over the course of the year (without even having to do an fx conversion). Deliberately designed-in friction in the system can see to it that people are forced to use intermediaries that erode value.
Will capital controls mean that it will be automatically converted to the local instable 'traditional currency'? How quickly will that 'traditional currency' devalue? Will the receiving bank lock your money up in accordance with government rules pending bureaucratic investigation of source of funds or failure to follow some ridiculous procedure or other to "register" that money with the state (and from experience, we could still be talking about relatively small amounts of money)? If you choose to have your 'traditional currency' accepted via visa/mastercard in a developing country, will a vendor turn round to you and say that I'll accept your payment but I'm charging you an additional 5% (happens all the time).
The more obvious need starts in the developing world - utility isn't as obvious in the developed world - but to your point on a currency being "accepted everywhere", it will as its network effect keeps on growing and just like folks have their banking app and paypal app, they have something like muun wallet alongside that.
@Tectate.. i have been following this case really closely over the past 18 months and it fascinates me the lengths GG / SEC goes to to delay the outcome and hold back on the Hinman emails despite being ordered 3 times now by a judge to disclose them to Ripple. I believe Ripple are close to a settlement which will give regularatory clarity to Ripple and their native token. Ripple is growing at speed and 95% of their business is outside the US. ODL corridors are being added daily, it is a very exciting time and fascinating to watch. The outcome of this case is being watched very closely and on settlement / Ripple win when US exchanges relist there may well be significant institutional investment and retail FOMO into the market. Naturally, they could of course lose and it all goes to zero ...nature of crypto ....I love it
@Kitten : I agree - it's very interesting to watch. Everyone knows that the SEC is having its ass handed to it in this case. The very people that it purports to protect have joined a group in their 10s of thousands and are recognised as 'friends of the court'. They've made it clear that rather than protect them, the SEC has done the opposite. There's never been a case like this in that respect.
And even though we all know its having its ass handed to it, the worst that will happen for the SEC is that they will agree to settle. Justice delayed is justice denied. Ripple has already suffered because of this case. It got further than 99% of others in that it could afford to take the SEC on - but that doesn't mean to say there hasn't been damage. Others have simply had to take the beating as they couldn't afford to take them on.
If Ripple stayed the distance and lets say they got the win, then they're still only damaging themselves all the while - as adoption suffers. The type of customer they're working with won't and can't touch them with a barge pole within the US while this nonsense is going on. And they can win - and the first thing the SEC will do is appeal - so then they're into another few years of process.
And even though we all know its having its ass handed to it, the worst that will happen for the SEC is that they will agree to settle. Justice delayed is justice denied. Ripple has already suffered because of this case. It got further than 99% of others in that it could afford to take the SEC on - but that doesn't mean to say there hasn't been damage. Others have simply had to take the beating as they couldn't afford to take them on.
If Ripple stayed the distance and lets say they got the win, then they're still only damaging themselves all the while - as adoption suffers. The type of customer they're working with won't and can't touch them with a barge pole within the US while this nonsense is going on. And they can win - and the first thing the SEC will do is appeal - so then they're into another few years of process.
Brad Garlinghouse is impressive and has a slew of excellent global relationships well in place, he is highly respected and David Schwartz doesn't even need mentioning. If you look at the ripple board, it is a powerful set of people. They know what they are doing, i believe once the case settles there will be a domino effect of key moves and partnerships that will see lightening fast adoption across the globe for cross border and ODL. It's already happening. The SEC tried to remove John Deatons amici status from the court but was denied. All BG wants is clarity, he may get that with a settlement but it will be done in such a way that it won't be seen as damaging to the dare I say 'reputation' of the SEC. Also Judge Netburn seems to be very wise to what has gone on and appears to really be tiring of the SEC tactics. She ripped them apart at the last hearing which the public could dial into. Dying to see the outcome, would love a clear win for Ripple but i think a settlement with clarity will suffice. US can't afford Ripple to move out of the States, it is already way behind on digital assets.
This Forbes article was just published. I don't think this headline could make it any clearer!
www.forbes.com
Gary Gensler: Resign
The SEC needs a leader who provides transparency, applies the law as written, and honors the Constitution.
www.forbes.com
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Was literally just reading it.....pretty clear cut...it is actually criminal how he has behavedThis Forbes article was just published. I don't think this headline could make it any clearer!
Gary Gensler: Resign
The SEC needs a leader who provides transparency, applies the law as written, and honors the Constitution.
Split decision but very much a win for Ripple. They were found to have sold unregistered securities to institutional investors but not to retail investors. Not a huge fan of the project although I can see it being successful, joining hands with TradFi. However, as regards this particular fight, delighted to see them having stuck to their guns and seen it through.
The Biden Admin crackdown on crypto is failing.
True - but let me help you step out of your crypto bubble a little. Because this is one case.....SEC vs Ripple Labs.....it was judged on the merits of the case itself and not broad crypto. This was not SEC vs. Crypto although in a common law jurisdiction like the US/Ireland precedent is important clearly but one should always remember that the particulars of case might lead to incorrect extrapolations. The SEC in this case....failed to prove sufficiently, according to the judge, an investment contract link between secondary sales of XRP on exchanges & Ripple labs. My legal pals tell me that it appears the SEC did a poor job build out this secondary sales piece of the case.....mistakenly assuming that establishing primary sales as securities would be sufficient. It wasn't. The simple solution apparently is the SEC to show, via employment/renumeration contracts, that secondary sales of XRP formed the basis of compensation agreements Ripple labs had with employees/founders/board members and that these programmatic sales directly funded Ripple's on-going business operations. SEC messed up here....on the next crypto illegal securities offering case they know what to do to win on the secondary market sales piece too.
What has been proven in this particular case, again if it were needed as we have multiple cases now, is the legal principle that ICO & ITO's at the point of initial sale (to whom doesn't matter - institutional/retail the sale and marketing is what counts) are unregistered securities & howey applies.
Ripple has been found GUILTY of an illegal unregistered securities offering. No 'project' token wills itself into existence autonomously......they aren't commodities.....they have founders, entrepreneurs, programers, promoters.........this is a monumental problem for 'greenfield' crypto.....US on-shore crypto anyway....i expect all the scams to move to El Salvdor and places such as that. The issue of course is kind of like the Jesse James quote...."Why do you rob banks Jesse? - Cause thats where the money is".....the issue for crypto is that selling get rich quick schemes to poor people isnt very profitable.......you need to be where the MONEY is......and the money in ITO's and ICO's is selling them in America....retail America and institutional america......that game is over now.
Also importantly missed by the crypto shill headlines - is that Ripple's 'fair notice' defense was rejected completely by the judge. For those that dont know they might recognise it from @tecate. it basically says the current laws are too vague for this new highly innovative asset class.....we need 'new' securities laws. The fair notice defense is therefore that your constitutional right to due process is violated if a law cannot be adequately & sensibly applied to an activity as there was no means by which you could have understood you were breaking the law cause the law is poorly constructed. Short version - you cant break a law if no reasonable person can understand how the law applies.
The judge ruled that the laws on the books are clear and clearly apply to ITO's and ICO's and Ripple's fair notice defense that they couldn't have known what they were doing in 2017 was illegal by selling tokens cause the law is vague was roundly rejected. Again Howey applies and is applicable. Short version - no new securities laws required as it pertains to INTIAL token or coin offerings. Howey applies
As you know Tecate Ripple is a side show....its one token in sea of illegal tokens....there are 5000, 10000 tokens out there.
Its beyond the SEC enforcement capability/manpower to go after them all.
They are going after the exchanges (Coinbase/Binance) where these tokens trade to shut them down (in the US obviously).......that is the choke point with the highest return on regulatory action.
its also devasting for crypto longer term....why? back to the my Jesse james........cause the US is where the money is....that sustains all these ponzis, MLM's & pyramid schemes......BTC benefits via adoption and attention.......all these ilegal token offerings spend billions promoting crypto.....BTC adoption and its price........is a derviative of all this promotional acitvity in the space......and the when the money dries up for tokens & ad dollars drop off a cliff.......so goes BTC........Ripple rulling yesterday just put ITO's and ICO's out of business in the USA.
I'd say the regualtory crackdown is going quite well.
And we havent got to the main event yet.....which as I said are the exchanges.
If I held any tokens/btc/XRP/eth.......IMO........right now would be a wonderful opportunity to dump into this suckers rally
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DazedInPontoon
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Your take is that the elimination of a lot of bitcoin's competition, and with it the PR damage done by bitcoin being lumped under a crypto umbrella along with the worst scams, is bad for bitcoin?
I think your looking at things too rosy.......the tokens and the speculation werent competition to bitcoin......they brought people in the space....they grew the TAM.........they made them aware........but those same tokens burned everybody who touched them.......the best thing that ever happened to BTC's price was token scams........the worst thing that ever happened to BTC's digital cold aspirations over the long pull was token scams.
Giving a shellacking to a bunch of new people coming into an end market......is not the way you grow that end market.