Estate agent refusing additional viewing before signing; Probate not granted yet

S

stiofan85

Registered User
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Hi,

Went Sale Agreed on a house about 2 months ago. Great. Transpired after paying booking deposit that probate wasn't granted and not even applied for. We've no real rush to get in so said this isn't a problem. Now that we've our loan offer sorted and we're about to sign contracts, I asked the estate agent could we view the house again. It'll be a while until we close so we would like to put together plans for renovations etc... We got a point blank no, and quite rudely. They say we can only view one week before we close.

Solicitor tells me this isn't normal, and she closed on a house last week where the new owners had seen it 4 or 5 times. Chap beside me in work is at about the same stage in buying a house and has viewed 4 times also, twice with a builder.

Can anyone advise if a viewing while waiting to close is out of the question?

Thanks
 
I am selling a house at the moment and have had a few requests from the estate agent to allow the buyers to view the property again with their architect, builders etc. I haven't had a problem with it and always gave permission. Has the estate agent asked the prospective buyers if they have any objection to you entering the property for these purposes? Surely it is in everyone's interest that the sale goes through so everything should be done to facilitate the buyers when the request is a reasonable one.
 
Threadser said:
I am selling a house at the moment and have had a few requests from the estate agent to allow the buyers to view the property again with their architect, builders etc. I haven't had a problem with it and always gave permission. Has the estate agent asked the prospective buyers if they have any objection to you entering the property for these purposes? Surely it is in everyone's interest that the sale goes through so everything should be done to facilitate the buyers when the request is a reasonable one.
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Thanks, appreciate the insight. Part of me thinks "I can see their point...they may still live there..." but at the end of the day, this is 100s of thousands of Euro and all parties need to be happy. From what I gather, this is actually the EA refusing to allow us to view and it is their policy. She was so rude, I couldn't believe it.

The vendor has been difficult also. Pushed back on an apparently standard condition as recommended by the law society and our solicitor strongly advised against excluding it. Even their solicitor said it was odd for them to request it being excluded. Our solicitor has been excellent so far, really proactive and fast to reply. She has said preventing the viewing is not acceptable and has written to their solicitor demanding we can view the house.

You're completely right: it is in everyone's interest that the sale goes through. The request is quite reasonable - we want to have a quick look around and size up the plans we have. In particular, there's a wall I want to remove but I can't remember from the viewing how it intersects another room. Little things like that so I can plan appropriately. If they don't allow us to view, I genuinely believe we'll pull out.

In the case of us pulling out, what fees would we be liable for? I'm assuming the solicitor's fees to this point? I've paid for the valuation already.
 
Hold off on signing until/unless you are entirely happy.

You are liable for your own fees - valuation and solicitor. I'd not consider these a waste as they have produced what they were supposed to.

Be grateful you have an on the ball solicitor. She's well worth her fee even if you walk away from the purchase.

You can still get your deposit back and if I was in your situation I'd be pulling out - awkward EA, difficult vendor => they deserve each other!

I bought a house a few years back and thankfully I had a good solicitor on my side. All the legal difficulties were sorted fully before I ever signed.

You are in a prime position - you haven't signed. Use this leverage to your advantage. Tell them to play ball or walk away.
 
I have bought a house every year over the last 3 years and my solicitor insists that the day the money is transferred I have to go to the house and view to give him the all clear before he transfers anything.
Brilliant solicitor and the way it should be.
No way would I touch a house where I am not allowed view...
 
stiofan85 said:
Transpired after paying booking deposit that probate wasn't granted and not even applied for. We've no real rush to get in so said this isn't a problem. Now that we've our loan offer sorted and we're about to sign contracts, I asked the estate agent could we view the house again. It'll be a while until we close
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I am more worried about this issue.

While you might be in no hurry, how long might it take? 6 months? A year?

Would your solicitor allow you to sign contracts if probate was not granted? Who is issuing the contract for sale?

Brendan
 
I'd be worried too if I was the Buyer.
If there is more than one beneficiary it is not unheard of for disputes to arise over selling the assets. People can contest a Will or refuse to move out of a house and have to be legally evicted by their siblings etc.
People who want to sell a house allow people to view it, simple as that.
If they don't want people to view it, then they don't want to sell it or are not in a position to sell it.
Better that you do some further investigations now and move on if necessary, rather than put up with this shennanigans for months and months and then discover the house can't/won't be sold. Ask your solicitor to contact the Seller's solicitor ASAP and find out what's going on.
Did you get a Structural Survey done on the house? You would surely need that if you are thinking of knocking walls etc, or to see if there are any other structural issues than need addressing.
 
Hello,

While I appreciate that buying a house can be a stressful and also an emotional time, with the right house being difficult to find in the current market... there is always going to be another house that you will grow to love just as much as this one.

The situation as you describe it does not sit right with me, I would be seriously considering taking my deposit back and walking away... potential future difficulties with probate, an uncooperative vendor and perhaps also a difficult solicitor acting for the vendor, are all negatives in isolation not to mention when you combine a few of them together !
 
Hi Brendan & Sadie,

Thanks for your reply

Probate does worry me for sure, but my solicitor has told me she's had some clear in 8 weeks due to there being a contract for sale. Either way, I've given a deadline to close by and will stick to it.

Since probate isn't granted, signing the contracts doesn't appear to mean anything as they can't legally sell the house, so the contract is pretty much worthless until then. Solicitor has included a condition that the sale does not close until 2 weeks after probate is granted to give us time to account for any potential problems.

MrEarl said:
Hello,

While I appreciate that buying a house can be a stressful and also an emotional time, with the right house being difficult to find in the current market... there is always going to be another house that you will grow to love just as much as this one.

The situation as you describe it does not sit right with me, I would be seriously considering taking my deposit back and walking away... potential future difficulties with probate, an uncooperative vendor and perhaps also a difficult solicitor acting for the vendor, are all negatives in isolation not to mention when you combine a few of them together !
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The EA has caved somewhat and allowed me in with a surveyor, which she was refusing to do yesterday. I'm not overly happy with this, but figure I'll take advantage and do the viewing with him and then have a long chat with the missus.

Overnight I've moved much more towards pulling out of this. It's just not feeling right.
 
stiofan85 said:
Either way, I've given a deadline to close by and will stick to it.
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I don't think you can impose such a deadline. If you sign contracts, you are committed to going ahead.

If they have not been granted probate,they can't go ahead.

I am not a solicitor,but...
  • You could sign contracts today which would leave you obliged to complete the process
  • They could not return them to you until probate is granted, so you would end up obliged to complete the process while they could pull out at any time. This could go on for months.
I really do not think you should make the final legal commitment until a Grant of Probate has been issued. Alternatively, the contract would have to contain a condition saying something like "Unless signed contracts are returned before [a specified date] , then the contract is void"

Brendan
 
Brendan Burgess said:
I don't think you can impose such a deadline. If you sign contracts, you are committed to going ahead.

If they have not been granted probate,they can't go ahead.

I am not a solicitor,but...
  • You could sign contracts today which would leave you obliged to complete the process
  • They could not return them to you until probate is granted, so you would end up obliged to complete the process while they could pull out at any time. This could go on for months.
I really do not think you should make the final legal commitment until a Grant of Probate has been issued. Alternatively, the contract would have to contain a condition saying something like "Unless signed contracts are returned before [a specified date] , then the contract is void"

Brendan
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Thanks for the input. I will clarify this with the solicitor. I'm not committing unless there's a condition on probate.

Buying a house is stressful. To anyone who reads this in the future: Avoid houses without probate granted and clarify with the EA when viewing. I actually asked when I viewed and she said it had been granted, only to find out after paying the booking deposit that this wasn't the case.
 
Given that the EA lied to you about probate having been granted, there may well be an argument that you could pursue the EA for the costs you have incurred. If you'd known at the beginning that probate wasn't granted, would you have gone any further and incurred the valuation and solicitor costs, or just walked away?
 
Seagull said:
Given that the EA lied to you about probate having been granted, there may well be an argument that you could pursue the EA for the costs you have incurred. If you'd known at the beginning that probate wasn't granted, would you have gone any further and incurred the valuation and solicitor costs, or just walked away?
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90% sure I'd have walked away but we've invested 2 months in this process now in good faith. Will wait to see what the solicitor says when I meet her Friday.

Surveyor has spoken with EA. Has same opinion that they are very difficult to deal with so at least I'm not over-reacting!
 
Now they're giving the surveyor grief about PI. I don't believe this has anything to do with the EA as it is voluntary on my side?
 
"there may well be an argument that you could pursue the EA for the costs you have incurred."

No. No grounds.

What has happened here is that the Vendors have waited for a Sale Agreed before applying for Probate. This is to "fix" a date of death value for Revenue and avoid a potential CGT liability if there was a gap between Probate valuation and final sale price.

"Since probate isn't granted, signing the contracts doesn't appear to mean anything as they can't legally sell the house, so the contract is pretty much worthless until then."

If the Vendor is selling as Executor of the deceased's will , then they have authority to sign Contracts and legally commit to the sale even before the Grant issues. Their authority derives from the will and so operates from date of death.

It's different if there is no will. The Administrator's authority derives from the Grant.

To be honest, the transaction sounds fairly run of the mill with the bonus of a possibly difficult vendor.

mf
 
mf1 said:
"there may well be an argument that you could pursue the EA for the costs you have incurred."

No. No grounds.

What has happened here is that the Vendors have waited for a Sale Agreed before applying for Probate. This is to "fix" a date of death value for Revenue and avoid a potential CGT liability if there was a gap between Probate valuation and final sale price.

"Since probate isn't granted, signing the contracts doesn't appear to mean anything as they can't legally sell the house, so the contract is pretty much worthless until then."

If the Vendor is selling as Executor of the deceased's will , then they have authority to sign Contracts and legally commit to the sale even before the Grant issues. Their authority derives from the will and so operates from date of death.

It's different if there is no will. The Administrator's authority derives from the Grant.

To be honest, the transaction sounds fairly run of the mill with the bonus of a possibly difficult vendor.

mf
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Thanks for the input mf1, particularly the detail on the executor of the will piece.

I believe it's the EA who is difficult more so than the vendor, although I think they are not too easy to deal with either.

Probate not being granted does not appear to be uncommon, and is often expedited by a sale. My solicitor explained this, and I researched this at that point and decided to stick it out. That to me does sound run of the mill yes absolutely.

But the EA is being very difficult about simply allowing us to view the house once more to get our plans in place for when we do move in. This doesn't seem unreasonable, but they are being very evasive. This makes me nervous.

Overall we've been very forthcoming from the moment we started bidding (proof of funds, evidence of AIP etc..), accommodating on the probate issue and got our loan offer together quickly. I don't believe asking for 20 minutes in the house is unreasonable?
 
"I don't believe asking for 20 minutes in the house is unreasonable?"

Its not.

You'll have to consider how to handle this. In my experience, disagreeable people seldom respond to other people getting disagreeable or cross with them
Don't phone - email. Phrase a pleasant email and send it. Then send another one a few days later if no response. At this stage, start using the word "regrettably".
If it gets to a stage where you clearly are not going to see the inside of the house, again, regrettably, advise that you won't be able to move on this property , will have to pull out of the transaction and will instruct your solicitor to return title.

Perhaps this is all a sign?

mf
 
mf1 said:
If the Vendor is selling as Executor of the deceased's will , then they have authority to sign Contracts and legally commit to the sale even before the Grant issues. Their authority derives from the will and so operates from date of death.
...

To be honest, the transaction sounds fairly run of the mill with the bonus of a possibly difficult vendor.
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Hi mf1

Thanks for clarifying this. I am glad I prefaced my remarks "I am not a solicitor,but..."

What happens if they both sign the contract with a closing date of 31 October and probate is not granted by then?

Brendan
 
"What happens if they both sign the contract with a closing date of 31 October and probate is not granted by then? "

Probates are generally taking 14-18 weeks minimum from date of lodging paperwork. Anecdotally, the office will expedite a Probate if there are signed Contracts ( altho' I know myself that the office are getting more than a little ticked off by requests for expedites when there is a feeling of entitlement to not having to wait for Probate with the rest of the great unwashed!)

Soooooooo - in this case, everyone should be talking and working through the likely time frame, seeing if it works for both parties and then agreeing the terms of the Contract which will have lots of anticipated dates, get out clauses etc.,etc. The Contract needs to be flexible and practical so that, if the Probate won't issue in the foreseeable future that the prospective purchaser can pull out.

It comes down to the two parties, their circumstances and the solicitors.

mf
 
You can see the house a week before close. This seems reasonable to me. The more buyers see a house the more minor defects they spot. When I sold my house the buyers tried to ask for 10k off on closing day due to 'defects' they had spotted on 2 'measuring' days.
 
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