ESRI: 17% of people receiving rent support from taxpayer are in top half of earners!

The Horseman

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It's not ,I understand your point but tax is circular if 52% returns via taxes those taxes are again used to fund HAP.

I believe its called a "zero sum game "
If you take a simple calculation of 50% tax on €460m then it's only "costing" the State €230m.

Even if the tax is used to fund HAP again its still only costing the State €230m.
 

Paul O Mahoney

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If you take a simple calculation of 50% tax on €460m then it's only "costing" the State €230m.

Even if the tax is used to fund HAP again its still only costing the State €230m.
Nonsensical argument the taxpayer still pays.

And your are assuming that all landlords are paying tax and if they are its marginal tax . If you can't provide an link please do.

Now that you are down the rabbit hole ,does the RAS scheme have that same " net " benefit, that's costing €133m a year.

The purchasing of private housing has no " reliable " costing, but is funded by the taxpayer.


Where does it start and stop ? Pedantic posts on this thread mean nothing.

A modern European country should have a functional housing policy, yet billions are spent and nothing changes.....riddle us that.
 

The Horseman

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Nonsensical argument the taxpayer still pays.

And your are assuming that all landlords are paying tax and if they are its marginal tax . If you can't provide an link please do.

Now that you are down the rabbit hole ,does the RAS scheme have that same " net " benefit, that's costing €133m a year.

The purchasing of private housing has no " reliable " costing, but is funded by the taxpayer.


Where does it start and stop ? Pedantic posts on this thread mean nothing.

A modern European country should have a functional housing policy, yet billions are spent and nothing changes.....riddle us that.
If you read my post you would see I said if you take a simple example but sure feel free to go on a rant.

The RAS scheme is between the landlord, the tenant and the council exactly the same as the HAP only difference is the State is liable for the non payment of rent.

Renting from a private landlord is a business trans nothing more nothing less. The purchaser is paying for a service.

If you want to make comparisons don't cherry pick those points to further your argument without the other points. EG in other countries people pay their rent and if they don't they are evicted quickly. That does not happen in Ireland.

Even some social housing tenants are behind in their heavily subsidised rent. Oh and the cherry on that cake is it is almost impossible to evict them because it's political suicide to even suggest changing the ruled.

Why does nothing change? It's because screwing the system is a badge of honour in Ireland and those who don't get screwed over and over again and no one in power is willing to call them out on it.
 

NoRegretsCoyote

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There is substantial variation across local authorities in the level of support provided to otherwise identical households: more than 9-in-10 supported renters have their rent contributions– and so their level of support –determined by their local authority’s differential rent scheme. These vary hugely in their design across local authorities, leading otherwise identical households to receive different levels of support. For example, a lone parent with two children earning €25,000 per year would pay a contribution of just €226 per month in South Dublin County Council, €313 per month in Donegal but €450 per month in Meath (see infographic).
The Dublin local authorities are particularly low when it comes to differential rents charged.

You have to kind of peer through the analysis but the biggest issue seems to be is the "tenure-for-life" model of social housing.

If you qualify for social housing at a certain point in your life it's assumed that you will have that same need forever. Take for example a couple aged 25 where the wife is on minimum wage and the husband looks after the two kids. But the kids won't be young forever and if by 50 their household income is €100k they are still paying a 10% of income based rent.

Many (but not all) social tenants life in areas with good social cohesion and amenities - why would they leave and buy their own house?!

On the flipside there are lots of people who later in life are in need of social housing due to addiction, family issues, business collapse, etc, and they are generally stuck in the private rental market paying a large % of income.
 

Silversurfer

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The Dublin local authorities are particularly low when it comes to differential rents charged.

You have to kind of peer through the analysis but the biggest issue seems to be is the "tenure-for-life" model of social housing.

If you qualify for social housing at a certain point in your life it's assumed that you will have that same need forever. Take for example a couple aged 25 where the wife is on minimum wage and the husband looks after the two kids. But the kids won't be young forever and if by 50 their household income is €100k they are still paying a 10% of income based rent.

Many (but not all) social tenants life in areas with good social cohesion and amenities - why would they leave and buy their own house?!

On the flipside there are lots of people who later in life are in need of social housing due to addiction, family issues, business collapse, etc, and they are generally stuck in the private rental market paying a large % of income.
These are some very good points. However what shocked me most was why the parents of nearly 3,000 children had them when they could not provide the basics? Perhaps we need to highlight this issue more. Social housing should be built on council owned or acquired land. Traditionally housing estates that were built by the council cost less to buy when sold. This might solve the affordability problem for future owners. Another area for discussion could be why do we have 26 homeless organisations in Ireland? All with CEO’s, staff and substantial offices? One particular organisation comes to mind whenever I am near Christchurch.
 

Paul O Mahoney

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Another area for discussion could be why do we have 26 homeless organisations in Ireland? All with CEO’s, staff and substantial offices? One particular organisation comes to mind whenever I am near Christchurch.
Wow I didn't think there was so many. How could any coherent strategy every be developed to solve this problem with this many, they would have their own agendas and of course be very slow to change anything that might affect their lives.
 

Paul O Mahoney

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The Peter McVerry Trust most recent statement showed that 44 million was spent on operational costs with 12.5 million on the acquisition of houses. Figures for 2020.
And I suppose they are getting Grant's from all sorts of Government agencies, the Government has essentially outsourced the issue and it's now an industry. Mc Verry trust has a €100m balance sheet with staff costs of €30.

It says on its 2020 accounts it helped 10,000 find accommodation and 1250 into new homes a quick read seems to suggest that they received €30m in Grant's, ok they are restricted so would be used in the future, the county councils that they operate in seem to be the main funders.

Housing has been outsourced and people are profiting from it.
 

Purple

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It should come as no surprise to anyone that we have a thriving homelessness industry in Ireland or that a substantial proportion of its income comes from the State.
 

Paul O Mahoney

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It should come as no surprise to anyone that we have a thriving homelessness industry in Ireland or that a substantial proportion of its income comes from the State.
And now there are calls to increase HAP with a report due to be released next month.

If there are funds of this magnitude available for housing and nothing improves surly it's not difficult to conclude that something else needs to be done.

And I doubt a change of government will change anything.
 

bipped

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And I suppose they are getting Grant's from all sorts of Government agencies, the Government has essentially outsourced the issue and it's now an industry. Mc Verry trust has a €100m balance sheet with staff costs of €30.

It says on its 2020 accounts it helped 10,000 find accommodation and 1250 into new homes a quick read seems to suggest that they received €30m in Grant's, ok they are restricted so would be used in the future, the county councils that they operate in seem to be the main funders.

Housing has been outsourced and people are profiting from it.

It would be interesting to see how much exactly the state is spending every year between hap, ras, direct leasing properties for 10/15/25 year terms, grants to threshold, simon, focus, mcverry trust, & the rest of the 26 homeless charities, plus the funding or grants given to the 520 ahb's like cluid, tuath, respond etc. Then add in the new developers subsidy. Plus the amounts being spent on buying units under part5 and councils buying additional housing in private developments, and one-off's properties being sold on the open market.
Sounds like a lot but maybe it's typical of how social housing is managed everywhere now. Comparisons with other EU countries and our nearest neighbour, and how they do things, would also be interesting. Maybe they have a better handle on it, ours seems completely messed up.
 

Paul O Mahoney

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It would be interesting to see how much exactly the state is spending every year between hap, ras, direct leasing properties for 10/15/25 year terms, grants to threshold, simon, focus, mcverry trust, & the rest of the 26 homeless charities, plus the funding or grants given to the 520 ahb's like cluid, tuath, respond etc. Then add in the new developers subsidy. Plus the amounts being spent on buying units under part5 and councils buying additional housing in private developments, and one-off's properties being sold on the open market.
Sounds like a lot but maybe it's typical of how social housing is managed everywhere now. Comparisons with other EU countries and our nearest neighbour, and how they do things, would also be interesting. Maybe they have a better handle on it, ours seems completely messed up.
I'm going have a go but first I need to get the historical data start in 2010 so I'll have 10 years data but reading the ESRI report there isn't cost for all services.

I'll use the Esri report from last week as the starting point but I already know that what they reported is different for example in HAP their figures are slightly less for 2020 than what HAP reported. And I believe the Qtr4 figure for 2021 has grown again.p

Forecasting might need a bit of science from other posters but it might start a debate that we can actually see the figures rather than having to trawl through multiple reports from multiple agencies and charities.
 

T McGibney

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HAP doesn't cost the tax payer €460m it costs significantly less than that as every €1 of rent half of it (for small landlords in the higher tax bracket goes back to the State and by extension the Taxpayer).
Not true. 52% of rental profits, not total rents, go back to the State in taxes.



If you take a simple calculation of 50% tax on €460m then it's only "costing" the State €230m.

Even if the tax is used to fund HAP again its still only costing the State €230m.
Off the scale levels of untrue.
 

The Horseman

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Not true. 52% of rental profits, not total rents, go back to the State in taxes.




Off the scale levels of untrue.
Agreed it is rental profits and not rent. There is so little left to "write off" in expenses.

What is "off the scale levels of untrue"
 

T McGibney

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There is so little left to "write off" in expenses.
Really?
Mortgage Interest, repairs & maintenance expenses, insurance, mortgage protection, Letting Agency fees, Property Management fees, advertising costs, legal fees in relation to letting, other once-off or recurring expenses, capital allowances on furniture fittings & contents.

What is "off the scale levels of untrue"
Your claim that 52% of rents go back to the State in tax and that HAP only costs the State half of what is spent on it.
 

Sophrosyne

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Forecasting might need a bit of science from other posters but it might start a debate that we can actually see the figures rather than having to trawl through multiple reports from multiple agencies and charities.
Good for you!

However, it's worth bearing in mind that people who need housing are not an homogenous group.

The McVerry Trust, for instance, is mainly concerned housing those with long-term addiction and mental health issues who also require long-term support.

I suppose the question is value for money as much as cost.

It is possible that a charity, with State support, might achieve better outcomes.
 

Purple

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Good for you!

However, it's worth bearing in mind that people who need housing are not an homogenous group.

The McVerry Trust, for instance, is mainly concerned housing those with long-term addiction and mental health issues who also require long-term support.
I find Charities operating within the Homelessness Industry are mainly concerned with making political points.
I suppose the question is value for money as much as cost.
It is indeed.
It is possible that a charity, with State support, might achieve better outcomes.
There is a proliferation of Charities within the Homelessness Industry. I very much doubt that they are offering value for money. I suspect there is massive duplication, inefficiency and waste.

Edit: according to the London Times (Paddy edition) there are 27 charities providing food to homeless people in Dublin.
The Dublin Regional Homeless Executive said that Dublin's 4 Councils spend €159 million in 2020 feeding homeless people. That's €30 a week per person for 10,000 people. There are under 100 rough sleepers in Dublin. Where'd everyone else come from?
 
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Paul O Mahoney

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Good for you!

However, it's worth bearing in mind that people who need housing are not an homogenous group.

The McVerry Trust, for instance, is mainly concerned housing those with long-term addiction and mental health issues who also require long-term support.

I suppose the question is value for money as much as cost.

It is possible that a charity, with State support, might achieve better outcomes.
Absolutely I started just trying to find who's who , it's like whack a mole they keep popping up......but one thing I gleaned the spend for 2022 is €4bn where that disappears to will be fun to find.


Had to come out and buy ink reports are 80 pages with a lot of smiles but the details are in the accounts, so print those and tie back to the 4 bn .........ha.
 

Paul O Mahoney

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I find Charities operating within the Homelessness Industry are mainly concerned with making political points.

It is indeed.

There is a proliferation of Charities within the Homelessness Industry. I very much doubt that they are offering value for money. I suspect there is massive duplication, inefficiency and waste.

Edit: according to the London Times (Paddy edition) there are 27 charities providing food to homeless people in Dublin.
The Dublin Regional Homeless Executive said that Dublin's 4 Councils spend €159 million in 2020 feeding homeless people. That's €30 a week per person for 10,000 people. There are under 100 rough sleepers in Dublin. Where'd everyone else come from?
Well its huge money, the one with the Irish name cluid? is another 100m balance sheet but it has 650m in debt it very complex, some of the funding I noticed was at 3.25% AIB and other banks I never heard of.....of course this is all underwritten by the Government. Assets are €1.2 bn but they use an amortisation calculation that will need a bit of understanding.

That one had 60m turnover with 45m ish expenses.

All are clgs too but I understand that as I set up the charity a few years back and the accounts must follow Frs2 and the Sorp, and the regulators requirements

The garden is done a few hours from 5am to 11/12 will kill the morning
 
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