Employer Liability Insurance to cover carer

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JoeRoberts

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Need to employ a fulltime live-in carer for parent.
Struggling to find any company that provides employer liability for this scenario - does anyone have experience in this area ?
 
Is parent living at home?

most house insurance policies cover EL for what is commonly called ' domestic servants'.
 
Yes, living at home, policy with Allianz. they say would not be covered for employer liability ( e.g .if carer hurt back while lifting mother ) and don't even offer it as additional cover. If carer tripped and fell they would be covered under the public liability element as normal.

This was just a guy on the phone, will need to check the policy now.
 
Hi Ravima - this is the policy clause - the carer would not be employed in connection with the premises - my guess is that this only covers for example a painter or plumber, what do you think ?


Liability to Domestic Employees


We will indemnify You against all sums

which You shall become legally liable to

pay as employer for death, accidental

bodily injury or illness to any Domestic

Employee while in your employment in

connection with the Premises. The

maximum amount payable under this

Policy in respect of any one event or series

of events constituting one occurrence is

€3,175,000 inclusive of all legal fees and


other expenses.
 
you seem to be looking at BUILDINGS section of the Policy. Have a look at CONTENTS section as well
 
Many thanks Ravima, looking at the definition of a domestic employee it appears we are covered


Domestic Employee(s)


Any employee of the Household carrying out

solely private domestic duties in connection

with the Premises noted on the schedule,

including repair, maintenance or decoration.
 
JoeRoberts said:
Yes, living at home, policy with Allianz. they say would not be covered for employer liability ( e.g .if carer hurt back while lifting mother ) and don't even offer it as additional cover. If carer tripped and fell they would be covered under the public liability element as normal.

This was just a guy on the phone, will need to check the policy now.
Click to expand...

That insurance company advice seems poor, confusing and somewhat contradictory.

There is no solid and unique legal definition of what constitutes an employee.
Much turns on the specific facts of any particular accident.

There are a number of tests of whether the employer/employee [master/servant] relationship exists, the principal one being that of control. Control means more that just directing the end purpose of the employee's work but would include retention of the right to direct how any item of work is done.

I would have thought on the information posted that there is a fair presumption that the "master/servant" relationship exists.

The insurance company statement that a fall by carer would constitute a public liability claim makes no sense.
If the carer is an employee they would probably not be able to make a claim under the public liability cover.

Does it make any difference as to which liability cover would operate in the event of an accident ?
Yes.
In the context of a master/servant relationship there are a number of additional and specific legal duties of care owed to an employee that would not exist in the absence of that relationship, e.g. a safe place of work, a safe system of work to name two particular obligations.

If a resident carer was an employee of a homecare agency then I would see any claim falling under the public liability cover as they would probably not be the homeowner's employee.

I would ask the insurance company to explain their position in writing.
Do they want OP to take out a specific employers' liability policy :rolleyes: ?

P.S. side-bar point OP but have you also checked out if there are any requirements to pay PRSI make tax deductions and the like if "employing" a carer directly ?
It might be safer to contract this out to a homecare company on the basis that the carer is not your mother's "employee".
BTW would the fair deal scheme cover this if your mother's clinical position justified it ?
 
Thanks DirectDevil.

We will be employing direct with an employment contract, registering with Revenue for taxes, paying holiday pay etc. In my mind there is no dispute that there is an employer/employee relationship.

Loads of people are doing this so can't understand why it is so difficult to get clarity, or insurance. No-one is offering an employer liability policy, this is what surprises me. It seems to be widely available in the UK.

Anyway, at this stage we just need to go ahead and work-off the basis that what the policy quotes above covers it. Will organise the necessary safety bits such as manual handling training course etc.

Fair deal does not cover care in the home.
 
Has anyone gone this route for senior care?

We are considering it from my parents. Currently, the HSE provide about 40 hours a week for my two parents.
The agency who provide the caregivers have suggested a live in scheme Instead. We are still teasing out the details.
However a relative has suggested getting somebody privately to stay overnight and provide a little bit of help late at night and then the existing schedule with the agency would continue

I have some concerns about tax and PRSI. I think it is unlikely there would be self-employed. Presumably they would also be entitled to paid annual leave like any other employee.

But I also have concern about insurance. What if they were injured while in the house? I don’t think they would be considered to be visitors if they were living in and working there.
That would be some risk to their property as well.

The revenue rules appeared to allow us to claim tax relief on payments to a carer, they don’t have to be qualified but it would appear that we would need some confirmation that my parents are incapacitated which shouldn’t be a problem..

Has anyone gone this route? And are there any pitfalls that I am missing?

I would have a few concerns about hiring a friend of a friend so to speak while there are a number of agencies who will provide an introduction. I am not really sure what they bring to the table.. it seems to be an introduction only and they have no ongoing responsibility.

I would welcome any views on this. I see it as fairly high risk and that is before we even get to interviewing people who will after all be living with two very vulnerable senior citizens.
 
Hi Annieindublin - I have done this for my father. We had two live in carers on separate occasions as provided by https://www.alhomecare.ie/

There is a lot of info on their website and they have a Zoom every Tues and Thurs.

To answer your questions/points "I have some concerns about tax and PRSI. I think it is unlikely there would be self-employed. Presumably they would also be entitled to paid annual leave like any other employee"
-> Yes you set yourself up as an employer and hire them as your employee. It's straight forward to do via an accountant.

"But I also have concern about insurance. What if they were injured while in the house? I don’t think they would be considered to be visitors if they were living in and working there."
-> I can't remember the details but yes we had to inform the broker/insurance company and as far as I recall, it was noted on house policy but there was no additional cost. Getting the carer insured on the car was more complex/costly but needed because of where my father lived.

"The revenue rules appeared to allow us to claim tax relief on payments to a carer, they don’t have to be qualified but it would appear that we would need some confirmation that my parents are incapacitated which shouldn’t be a problem.."
-> I didn't do this myself as my father was paying the costs and does not have a large tax bill

"Has anyone gone this route? And are there any pitfalls that I am missing?"
-> Main pitfall is finding the right carer for your loved parents. We hired one good one and one bad one.

Overall I would recommend it both financially and from a care perspective. We had HSE care, private care and a carer staying at night on the nights the live in carer was not in the house or working. Live in carer worked 5 days in 7 and provided passive care for 5-6 nights.
 
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