Electric Vehicles - pros and cons, but mainly battery life

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Zenith63

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And doing even a bit more reading, of the same article, answers your question :-

" Instead of a vast network of charging points, all that is necessary are stores where cells can be swapped, just as people already swap propane gas bottles.
Swapping a battery, says Jackson, takes about 90 seconds.
He and Corcoran say they are in 'advanced discussions' with two major supermarket chains to provide this facility. "
Ah no I know it’s technically possible to swap the batteries, I just don’t think there’s any future in it, in-fact there was an article only over the weekend on some of the battery swap out facilities in the US that are now defunct. There’s just no need for it, battery densities are increasing 5%-10% per year and for the vast majority of use-cases are already sufficient.

I plug my car in at night and it’s full and ready to go every morning, no more hassle than my phone. The incentive to move to a system where I’d have to visit somewhere for a battery swap out every few days is just non-existent. Could be an interesting scenario for vehicles that need to go long distances with short charging windows, like trucks maybe? But sending the battery pack off to be stripped and recycled at each recharge to me makes this pure our-in-the-sky stuff.
 

Zenith63

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"Meanwhile, the raw cost of a new aluminium-air cell is much lower.
In a Tesla, Jackson says, the battery costs about £30,000. An aluminium-air fuel cell that would power the same car for longer would cost just £5,000."
But that £30k is a once off cost. With this invention it needs to be taken out of the car, sent to a factory, cells removed and recycled, new cells manufactured and put into the pack, shipped back to supermarket or wherever swap outs will happen and installed back into a car. The amount of labour involved in all that must be huge! If you put 150,000 miles on the car you’d be doing 100 of these swaps, I’d be amazed if all that work could be done for the £250 per swap out that would be required to be cheaper than a Tesla battery.
 

SparkRite

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To produce a litre of petrol/diesel is also labour intensive, yet is on sale in the USA for less than 50c to the end user.

The article claims that 90seconds is all that is required to 'fill up' (change cell) every 1500 miles or so, about 3 - 4 fill-ups for a modern ICE but many, many HOURS more are required for a Li-Io powered vehicle.
 

Leo

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Don't think so @Leo, my understanding is that if you weigh up the cost of replacing a Li-Io battery at EOL compared to the same amount of 'Fuel cells' over the same time period then the new technology is considerably cheaper.

"Meanwhile, the raw cost of a new aluminium-air cell is much lower.
In a Tesla, Jackson says, the battery costs about £30,000. An aluminium-air fuel cell that would power the same car for longer would cost just £5,000."
I did wonder about that alright! It's all a bit confusing, but your interpretation makes more sense. Tesla batteries don't cost £30k, so perhaps they are factoring recharge costs over the lifespan?
 

SparkRite

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As the owner of two Li-Ion powered cars, the time to charge at a fast charger on the motorway is 30-40 minutes.
Usually for a charge from 20% to 80%, and a LOT more often, the article claims 1.5 mins. for a FULL charge/replacement. 3.75% of the time you take to get to 80% and a LOT fewer times, to boot.

Personally, at least at the present time, I think the article is 'pie in the sky', I'm just arguing it on face value.
 
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mathepac

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the time to charge at a fast charger on the motorway is 30-40 minutes.
Surely you need to drive *off* the motorway to some service stop to re-charge, just as you would with an ICE? I avoid having to pay crippling motorway services prices for diesel by filling up across the road for today's price of €1.269 /litre. In EV Nirvana this option won't be open to me due to the very limited range of the vehicles, between 45% and 80% of that claimed by manufacturers. It won't come as a shock that motorway prices for EV top-ups on the move will attract premium prices, as for fossil fuels; you'll just need to make more stops.

On the mainland, you can rent a fossil fuel vehicle for long trips while your expensive EV depreciates on the driveway.
 

RichInSpirit

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Found some more of the same technology on YouTube. Seems there is another company at a more advanced stage using the same or similar technology.
Also the top secret electrolyte mentioned in the article might be some readily available chemical.
This thing could be DIYable. Just gather enough empty coke and beer cans.
 

lledlledlled

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Surely you need to drive *off* the motorway to some service stop to re-charge, just as you would with an ICE? I avoid having to pay crippling motorway services prices for diesel by filling up across the road for today's price of €1.269 /litre. In EV Nirvana this option won't be open to me due to the very limited range of the vehicles, between 45% and 80% of that claimed by manufacturers. It won't come as a shock that motorway prices for EV top-ups on the move will attract premium prices, as for fossil fuels; you'll just need to make more stops.

On the mainland, you can rent a fossil fuel vehicle for long trips while your expensive EV depreciates on the driveway.
Not sure where you're getting between 45% and 80%. A work colleague is getting 436km average per charge on his Kona, according to the dashboard read-out.

Out of interest, what is your opinion on these newer sub-€40k EVs with plus-400km range? Do you at least acknowledge that these are now a viable option for a large number of people e.g. people in cities who can install a home charge & don't commute to other counties, or even better those who have access to a free EV charger in work?
 

mathepac

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Not sure where you're getting between 45% and 80%. A work colleague is getting 436km average per charge on his Kona, according to the dashboard read-out.
Sorry that should have read 45-68% of manufacturer's claimed mileage for the model I chose in post 110 above based on the actual figures recorded by users of an EV route-planner Nissan recommend on their website.

Your colleague's EV does 271 miles max between fill-ups. Watch that figure sink as the use of lights, heating, wipers etc increase in the dark, cold, wet and icy winter months. For the sake of a 7-minute visit to the pumps, my diesel Avensis has a range of 660 miles. How long does it have to stay on charge to get to my Avensis' range?
 

lledlledlled

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Sorry that should have read 45-68% of manufacturer's claimed mileage for the model I chose in post 110 above based on the actual figures recorded by users of an EV route-planner Nissan recommend on their website.

Your colleague's EV does 271 miles max between fill-ups. Watch that figure sink as the use of lights, heating, wipers etc increase in the dark, cold, wet and icy winter months. For the sake of a 7-minute visit to the pumps, my diesel Avensis has a range of 660 miles. How long does it have to stay on charge to get to my Avensis' range?
Ok, so you're determined to base your argument on a specific model of EV that nobody else has recommended or even mentioned.

Do you care to respond to my query above on the models we were actually discussing (e.g. Kona) and their likely suitability to certain groups of drivers?

You seem to be avoiding direct questions and reverting back to this Nissan EV vs the MPG of your Avensis. We get it, your Avensis goes further. That wasn't the question though.
 

mathepac

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Open to any/all comments on the subject but to kick off, maybe we could start with the following issues...

1. Range anxiety - the main barrier for most people I think. Maybe the Hyundai Kona is a game changer in this regard for some people

2. Charge Points - locations particularly lacking in a nearby charge point.

3. Incentives - should there be free parking at charge Points? Should non-EVs be allowed park at and block a charge point?

4. Makes and Models, pros and cons
This is what I understood the thread was about, as described in the OP. I didn't realise you'd want to narrow the focus later having liked the OP.

I've discussed more than one model, one NEW and UPGRADED which I spotted in the propaganda, sorry ad, and it seemed worthy of further exploration based on size and carrying capacity. I'm sorry if this particular Nissan didn't fit into some mysterious fan-boy vehicle profile in order to qualify for discussion here and also seemed to have fallen foul of the best-case mileage requirement and charge connection "standard";

The next EV I chose to discuss was the Peugeot 208 Graham Lennox road-trialled in last weekend's Sunday Times. Here, the manufacturer acknowledges the deficiencies of the EV paradigm by offering owners of the EV the option of renting an ICE version of the 208 in order to travel long distances. This is beyond farcical, with the Emporer admitting he is naked even in his yet-to-be-released clothes.

I also raised some general issues, none of which have been answered at all, not to mind to my satisfaction, but that's OK. I understand peoples' need to have their product choices praised and validated rather than accept that they do not now and never will meet the needs or preferences of others.
 

lledlledlled

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This is what I understood the thread was about, as described in the OP. I didn't realise you'd want to narrow the focus later having liked the OP.

I've discussed more than one model, one NEW and UPGRADED which I spotted in the propaganda, sorry ad, and it seemed worthy of further exploration based on size and carrying capacity. I'm sorry if this particular Nissan didn't fit into some mysterious fan-boy vehicle profile in order to qualify for discussion here and also seemed to have fallen foul of the best-case mileage requirement and charge connection "standard";

The next EV I chose to discuss was the Peugeot 208 Graham Lennox road-trialled in last weekend's Sunday Times. Here, the manufacturer acknowledges the deficiencies of the EV paradigm by offering owners of the EV the option of renting an ICE version of the 208 in order to travel long distances. This is beyond farcical, with the Emporer admitting he is naked even in his yet-to-be-released clothes.

I also raised some general issues, none of which have been answered at all, not to mind to my satisfaction, but that's OK. I understand peoples' need to have their product choices praised and validated rather than accept that they do not now and never will meet the needs or preferences of others.
You are correct in that the intent of the thread is to discuss the various aspects of Electric Vehicles, including negative experiences.
It is pointless having a biased thread with only one viewpoint. Or 'fan-boys' as you keep calling the thousands (and growing) who see EVs as suitable for them.

What I keep asking you (and you keep avoid answering) is do you accept that some of the newer sub-40k EVs (e.g. Kona, Niro) with ranges of over 400km on a single charge, are now suitable for a significant portion of the driving public e.g. those living & working in cities, with access to home or work charging.

I'm not sure what 'general issues' you feel you've raised and haven't been answered? I'll do my best to answer you if you ask me a question. Assuming of course, that you get around to answering mine.
 
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