ECB hopes the avalanche of stimulus will accelerate growth amid high inflation

RobFer

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Good read. http://cormaclucey.blogspot.com/2021/08/ecb-hopes-avalanche-of-stimulus-will.html
 
World turned upside down.
There was a time when interest rates were a tool to manage inflation.
Now CB's want to use inflation in order to manage the interest rate.

In another world, it would be called a busted system.
 
This chart shows that Ireland's deposit rate in 1980 was 12.00%. Cormac reminds us that inflation then was 18.1%. That means deposits were losing 6.1% in real terms back then. And for those honest folk who paid their DIRT the erosion was probably about 10% p.a. And yet Cormac states that "real" interest rates have fallen into negative territory. He states this as a new phenomenon of erosion of pension savings by inflation.
A deposit rate of 0% would imply a real rate of interest of 0.3% given the figure 0 -0.3% inflation cited by Cormac. In fact we are in a period of the highest real rates of return on deposits, especially for taxpayers. Rather sloppy of Cormac.
 
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A deposit rate of 0% would imply a real rate of interest of 0.3% given the figure 0 -0.3% inflation cited by Cormac. In fact we are in a period of the highest real rates of return on deposits, especially for taxpayers.

Given the charges now applicable for just being a customer of the bank I think the highest real rates of return are bordering close to cash under the mattress.
 
Ah WolfeTone,

Give us a break. The Duke just annihalted what Cormac was saying and instead of acknowledging this, off you go on a merry tangent. You're better than this!
 
The Duke just annihalted what Cormac was saying and instead of acknowledging this, off you go on a merry tangent.

I'm not disputing @Duke of Marmalade at all. I'm in agreement. Just to emphasis here is what he said

A deposit rate of 0% would imply a real rate of interest of 0.3% given the figure 0 -0.3% inflation cited by Cormac. In fact we are in a period of the highest real rates of return on deposits,

If 0.3% represents a period (spanning as far back as 1980's) of the highest real rates, then I stand by my point.
The 1980's, even as a nipper, I remember the basket case economy this country was, unemployment, emigration, public finances in tatters, and not short of mass protests against PAYE and banking system.

0.3% is derisory. If it weren't for the printing presses/key strokes of ECB, where would be today?
Would we be close to a return of those days in the 1980's? Where as the Duke points out, the real rate of return was far worse?

If so, and this is my point, it is borderline now which way this monetary system is taking us and cash under the mattress may soon, if not already, yield a greater return.
 
There is no doubt that these are entirely unprecedented conditions. Cormac's note gave me cause to dip into my Bernanke textbook to refresh my understanding of things like R*. Even as recently as 2004 these textbooks talk about "interest rates cannot go negative"*. One doubts whether traditional concepts like R* mean anything any more.
Does this make me scared that it will all go pear shaped. Well yeah, but I do trust that the FED/ECB etc. are very able gals and guys and more importantly that they have my interests in mind, but they might get it wrong.
I realise this pushes some folk into the skeptical even conspiracy theorist camp that we are about to witness the end of our monetary civilisation and indeed for some this would be a long term fantasy fulfilled. This all partly explains the rise of bitcoin and 2,000 lookalikes but there are plenty of other threads on that topic.

* Swiss francs the notorious exception where mega rich folk preferred to keep their CHF in a Swiss bank that under the mattress.
 
This all partly explains the rise of bitcoin and 2,000 lookalikes but there are plenty of other threads on that topic.

It's curious why you bring up bitcoin in this thread then?

Isnt it the bitcoin folk that have been pointing to the inherent flaws within the centralised banking system for years now?

I accept that you will never come round to notion that bitcoin offers an option to protect their wealth.
On the other hand, it is clear now that seeds of doubt are being sown in your thinking.

There is no doubt that these are entirely unprecedented conditions.

One doubts whether traditional concepts like R* mean anything any more.

Does this make me scared that it will all go pear shaped. Well yeah,

I do trust that the FED/ECB etc. are very able gals and guys and more importantly that they have my interests in mind, but they might get it wrong.



And while the Duke is pondering the possibilities of a pear-shaped monetary policy, how many of his peers are casting a glance at the bitcoin thing?

"Our freedom must be had at all hazards. If the men of property will not help us then they must fall. We will free ourselves by that large and respectable class of the community - the men of no property."

-
me, talking about bitcoin in 1798.
 
@WolfeTone , I think you'd agree with Jefferson's opinions on banks;
“Our public credit is good, but the abundance of paper has produced a spirit of gambling in the funds, which has laid up our ships at the wharves as too slow instruments of profit, and has even disarmed the hand of the tailor of his needle and thimble. They say the evil will cure itself. I wish it may; but I have rarely seen a gamester cured, even by the disasters of his vocation.” –Thomas Jefferson to Gouverneur Morris, 1791

Jefferson was of the opinion that Capitalists and Bankers would undermine democracy and usurp the power of the people to govern themselves. I think he was right.
 
Jefferson was of the opinion that Capitalists and Bankers would undermine democracy and usurp the power of the people to govern themselves. I think he was right.

Yes. And all the whole we are reading headlines of 12% property price increases for the year ahead.
In the midst of a global public expenditure blow-outs, supply chain disruptions, negative interest rates and unprecedented key stroking money into existence from thin air.
Hold On for Dear Life.
 
Yep, I think the whole thing is nuts and the wheels will come off soon but I'm not that clever and the smart boys think it's all going to be fine.
David McWilliams says it's all good and he has a perfect record of seeing the future...
 
Also you don't think that bankers might usurp the power of the people to govern themselves? We've hardly forgotten already...
 
I dont think you have shown that we are in a period of the highest real rates of return on deposits, you don't cite any historical DIRT rate and your interest rate data is paywalled. What you did show was snark and that was not needed.
 
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I dont think you have shown that we are in a period of the highest real rates of return on deposits, you don't cite any historical DIRT rate and your interest rate data is paywalled. What you did show was snark and that was not needed.
I was not posting an academic contribution. When I first read:
Cormac Lucey said:
In 1980 the Irish rate of inflation was 18.1 per cent. Last year Ireland experienced negative inflation (that is, deflation) of 0.3 per cent. Yet nominal interest rates have dropped by more than the fall in inflation.
I immediately screamed "that is oh so not true, deposit rates were never higher than 18% or anywhere near". This was not a small technical slip - it was central to the theme of the article. A quick Google gave me the "proof" without paywalls, try it. I was speaking from my Irish experience and it seems to me this protracted period of very very low inflation has brought with it a period of high real returns relatively speaking. This is not of course because of historical generosity by our retail institutions. The fact is that inflation is the friend of the retail institutions. What is a 1.5% management charge when we are in a period of double digit inflation? This is the exact opposite to Cormac's argument.
The DIRT comment was a throwaway. But as it happens DIRT was not introduced until the late '80s. Before that deposit interest was subject to income tax which in the '80s touched over 70% even on modest incomes. What point are you making?
Finally I note that you do not like the tone of my post. I have to say that you must have led a sheltered social media existence.
 
Yep, I think the whole thing is nuts and the wheels will come off soon
If the wheels do not come off soon, then the whole thing will go even more nuts. "The boom just keeps on getting boomier"

Thus are bubbles born, and living standards raised.
 
If the economy had continued on as normal with no covid or lockdowns we would not have experienced this level of inflation or housing shortages. Yes I know we had housing shortages before but not to this extent.
The lockdowns created this pent up demand of unspent money that has been focused on the housing market, as well as that our population is at its highest ever level as expat Irish returned home like never before. So there are many more people in the market than beforehand.
However I think inflation especially in the energy and food markets are going to suck a lot of those excess savings away along with tax hikes as the government struggles to pay the bills as the ecb will be forced to choke off the magic money due to the above.