ECB hopes the avalanche of stimulus will accelerate growth amid high inflation

RobFer

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Last month marked the tenth anniversary of the last time the European Central Bank (ECB) raised its base rate of interest. In 2011, during the economic recovery that followed Europe’s 2007-9 recession, the ECB raised interest rates just twice (from 1 to 1.5 per cent) before taking fright later that year and speedily reversing both increases. The ECB didn’t raise its base rate at all during the years of relatively strong economic growth after 2015 that preceded the pandemic. By contrast, between 2005 and 2008 there were nine interest rate rises of 0.25 per cent.

While the ECB raised rates by a total of 2.25 per cent between 2005 and 2008, the Bank of England got away with just five rises of 0.25 per cent in the same period. It hasn’t managed a single rise since June 2007. Last week Crispin Odey, a prominent hedge fund manager, said that the Bank of England would “never” put up interest rates. Do depositors in Britain and Europe really face a future of permanently low interest rates and zero-interest income?

Nominal interest rates (the rate depositors used to get paid by their banks) can be divided into a real interest rate element and an inflation element. The inexorable drop in inflation over recent decades has caused that element to shrink and has brought retail interest rates down with it. In 1980 the Irish rate of inflation was 18.1 per cent. Last year Ireland experienced negative inflation (that is, deflation) of 0.3 per cent. Yet nominal interest rates have dropped by more than the fall in inflation. Real interest rates have also fallen into negative territory, and depositors must suffer the gradual erosion of the real value of their savings.

Why have real interest rates fallen to the point that they are now negative? The answer lies in the natural rate of interest (R* or R star), which is the theoretical rate of interest that can sustain the economy at full employment while keeping inflation constant. It’s therefore the Goldilocks rate of interest for central bankers seeking to combine economic growth with price stability. But it cannot be observed directly. Rather policymakers and economic researchers use economic models to estimate it and help central bankers guide monetary policy, just as theoretical models direct government policy on Covid-19 or climate change.

In theory the neutral rate of interest should be determined by the supply of and demand for savings. The more savings that are available, relative to investment demand for those savings, the lower will be R*. The higher investment demand for savings, relative to supply, the higher will be R*. So in practice this means the natural rate should be closely linked to the trend rate of economic growth. If interest rates — and thus the cost of capital — were persistently below the rate of economic growth, then demand for credit should increase as companies seek to profit from the gap between the lower interest rate and the higher expected rate of return from investing capital.

This all means that the trend rate of economic growth acts as a good proxy for the natural interest rate, which will balance the supply and demand for credit. Before the global financial crisis, academic estimates of R* closely followed estimates of GDP growth. Since then there has been a collapse in R*. The US and most European economies suffered a balance sheet recession in 2008-09 that affected credit demand for an extended period. Ireland offers a good example. In the economic bust overextended Irish banks, property developers and homeowners faced negative equity as their property-backed asset values dropped below the value of their debts. This put them into negative equity and theoretical insolvency. That made them less responsive to conventional efforts to stimulate the economy as they were preoccupied with fixing their own balance sheets. They tended to save any economic stimulus to repair their damaged finances rather than to spend it, as governments and central banks wished. Demand for credit dropped considerably: unlike the years before 2007, even sharply reduced interest rates failed to trigger borrowing. That failure explains, in large part, why central bankers are so willing today to contemplate policy actions that would have been considered risky yesterday.
ccording to BCA Research, at least four additional shocks since 2008 magnified the impact of the global financial crisis and help to explain the disconnect between rates of economic growth and of interest over the past decade: the euro area sovereign debt crisis; premature fiscal austerity; the 2014-15 collapse in oil prices; and the Trump administration’s aggressive use of trade tariffs. All contributed to the fall in demand for credit, which caused the natural rate of interest to decline below the rate of economic growth.

Interest rates are no more than the price to borrow or lend money. That price gets set by the supply of, and demand for, money. And if the prospect of an ageing society increases the supply of savings while recent financial accidents dent investment demand for those savings, then a fall in interest rates is the logical outcome. It was the fall in R*, rather than central bank base rate decisions, which caused retail interest rates to collapse to zero. And it is that fall which is making it ever more difficult for depositors and pension funds to sustain themselves financially from their savings.

The economic damage caused by the pandemic does not suggest a higher natural rate of interest as we go forward. But the astonishing level of policy stimulus triggered by the pandemic may. It has shifted the narrative about fiscal spending from “arguably insufficient” for the years after the global financial crisis to now “risking a dramatic overheating of the economy”.

Things may change fundamentally if the resulting avalanche of stimulus can ignite a virtuous circle of additional spending and investment, which in turn unleash increased economic growth that then feeds more spending and more investment. If that virtuous scenario unfolds, we could see a rise in the underlying rate of economic growth, a rise in the natural rate of interest and a falling away of concerns about secular stagnation. That would be good news for many people. Hope that it transpires is a key reason why central bankers are likely to err on the side of maintaining high levels of economic stimulus, even in the face of rising inflation rates.

Good read. http://cormaclucey.blogspot.com/2021/08/ecb-hopes-avalanche-of-stimulus-will.html
 
World turned upside down.
There was a time when interest rates were a tool to manage inflation.
Now CB's want to use inflation in order to manage the interest rate.

In another world, it would be called a busted system.
 
This chart shows that Ireland's deposit rate in 1980 was 12.00%. Cormac reminds us that inflation then was 18.1%. That means deposits were losing 6.1% in real terms back then. And for those honest folk who paid their DIRT the erosion was probably about 10% p.a. And yet Cormac states that "real" interest rates have fallen into negative territory. He states this as a new phenomenon of erosion of pension savings by inflation.
A deposit rate of 0% would imply a real rate of interest of 0.3% given the figure 0 -0.3% inflation cited by Cormac. In fact we are in a period of the highest real rates of return on deposits, especially for taxpayers. Rather sloppy of Cormac.
 
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A deposit rate of 0% would imply a real rate of interest of 0.3% given the figure 0 -0.3% inflation cited by Cormac. In fact we are in a period of the highest real rates of return on deposits, especially for taxpayers.

Given the charges now applicable for just being a customer of the bank I think the highest real rates of return are bordering close to cash under the mattress.
 
Ah WolfeTone,

Give us a break. The Duke just annihalted what Cormac was saying and instead of acknowledging this, off you go on a merry tangent. You're better than this!
 
The Duke just annihalted what Cormac was saying and instead of acknowledging this, off you go on a merry tangent.

I'm not disputing @Duke of Marmalade at all. I'm in agreement. Just to emphasis here is what he said

A deposit rate of 0% would imply a real rate of interest of 0.3% given the figure 0 -0.3% inflation cited by Cormac. In fact we are in a period of the highest real rates of return on deposits,

If 0.3% represents a period (spanning as far back as 1980's) of the highest real rates, then I stand by my point.
The 1980's, even as a nipper, I remember the basket case economy this country was, unemployment, emigration, public finances in tatters, and not short of mass protests against PAYE and banking system.

0.3% is derisory. If it weren't for the printing presses/key strokes of ECB, where would be today?
Would we be close to a return of those days in the 1980's? Where as the Duke points out, the real rate of return was far worse?

If so, and this is my point, it is borderline now which way this monetary system is taking us and cash under the mattress may soon, if not already, yield a greater return.
 
There is no doubt that these are entirely unprecedented conditions. Cormac's note gave me cause to dip into my Bernanke textbook to refresh my understanding of things like R*. Even as recently as 2004 these textbooks talk about "interest rates cannot go negative"*. One doubts whether traditional concepts like R* mean anything any more.
Does this make me scared that it will all go pear shaped. Well yeah, but I do trust that the FED/ECB etc. are very able gals and guys and more importantly that they have my interests in mind, but they might get it wrong.
I realise this pushes some folk into the skeptical even conspiracy theorist camp that we are about to witness the end of our monetary civilisation and indeed for some this would be a long term fantasy fulfilled. This all partly explains the rise of bitcoin and 2,000 lookalikes but there are plenty of other threads on that topic.

* Swiss francs the notorious exception where mega rich folk preferred to keep their CHF in a Swiss bank that under the mattress.
 
This all partly explains the rise of bitcoin and 2,000 lookalikes but there are plenty of other threads on that topic.

It's curious why you bring up bitcoin in this thread then?

Isnt it the bitcoin folk that have been pointing to the inherent flaws within the centralised banking system for years now?

I accept that you will never come round to notion that bitcoin offers an option to protect their wealth.
On the other hand, it is clear now that seeds of doubt are being sown in your thinking.

There is no doubt that these are entirely unprecedented conditions.

One doubts whether traditional concepts like R* mean anything any more.

Does this make me scared that it will all go pear shaped. Well yeah,

I do trust that the FED/ECB etc. are very able gals and guys and more importantly that they have my interests in mind, but they might get it wrong.

:eek:

And while the Duke is pondering the possibilities of a pear-shaped monetary policy, how many of his peers are casting a glance at the bitcoin thing?

"Our freedom must be had at all hazards. If the men of property will not help us then they must fall. We will free ourselves by that large and respectable class of the community - the men of no property."

-
me, talking about bitcoin in 1798. :)
 
@WolfeTone , I think you'd agree with Jefferson's opinions on banks;
“Our public credit is good, but the abundance of paper has produced a spirit of gambling in the funds, which has laid up our ships at the wharves as too slow instruments of profit, and has even disarmed the hand of the tailor of his needle and thimble. They say the evil will cure itself. I wish it may; but I have rarely seen a gamester cured, even by the disasters of his vocation.” –Thomas Jefferson to Gouverneur Morris, 1791

Jefferson was of the opinion that Capitalists and Bankers would undermine democracy and usurp the power of the people to govern themselves. I think he was right.
 
Jefferson was of the opinion that Capitalists and Bankers would undermine democracy and usurp the power of the people to govern themselves. I think he was right.

Yes. And all the whole we are reading headlines of 12% property price increases for the year ahead.
In the midst of a global public expenditure blow-outs, supply chain disruptions, negative interest rates and unprecedented key stroking money into existence from thin air.
Hold On for Dear Life.
 
Yes. And all the whole we are reading headlines of 12% property price increases for the year ahead.
In the midst of a global public expenditure blow-outs, supply chain disruptions, negative interest rates and unprecedented key stroking money into existence from thin air.
Hold On for Dear Life.
Yep, I think the whole thing is nuts and the wheels will come off soon but I'm not that clever and the smart boys think it's all going to be fine.
David McWilliams says it's all good and he has a perfect record of seeing the future...
 
Also you don't think that bankers might usurp the power of the people to govern themselves? We've hardly forgotten already...
 
This chart shows that Ireland's deposit rate in 1980 was 12.00%. Cormac reminds us that inflation then was 18.1%. That means deposits were losing 6.1% in real terms back then. And for those honest folk who paid their DIRT the erosion was probably about 10% p.a. And yet Cormac states that "real" interest rates have fallen into negative territory. He states this as a new phenomenon of erosion of pension savings by inflation.
A deposit rate of 0% would imply a real rate of interest of 0.3% given the figure 0 -0.3% inflation cited by Cormac. In fact we are in a period of the highest real rates of return on deposits, especially for taxpayers. Rather sloppy of Cormac.
I dont think you have shown that we are in a period of the highest real rates of return on deposits, you don't cite any historical DIRT rate and your interest rate data is paywalled. What you did show was snark and that was not needed.
 
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I dont think you have shown that we are in a period of the highest real rates of return on deposits, you don't cite any historical DIRT rate and your interest rate data is paywalled. What you did show was snark and that was not needed.
I was not posting an academic contribution. When I first read:
Cormac Lucey said:
In 1980 the Irish rate of inflation was 18.1 per cent. Last year Ireland experienced negative inflation (that is, deflation) of 0.3 per cent. Yet nominal interest rates have dropped by more than the fall in inflation.
I immediately screamed "that is oh so not true, deposit rates were never higher than 18% or anywhere near". This was not a small technical slip - it was central to the theme of the article. A quick Google gave me the "proof" without paywalls, try it. I was speaking from my Irish experience and it seems to me this protracted period of very very low inflation has brought with it a period of high real returns relatively speaking. This is not of course because of historical generosity by our retail institutions. The fact is that inflation is the friend of the retail institutions. What is a 1.5% management charge when we are in a period of double digit inflation? This is the exact opposite to Cormac's argument.
The DIRT comment was a throwaway. But as it happens DIRT was not introduced until the late '80s. Before that deposit interest was subject to income tax which in the '80s touched over 70% even on modest incomes. What point are you making?
Finally I note that you do not like the tone of my post. I have to say that you must have led a sheltered social media existence.
 
Yep, I think the whole thing is nuts and the wheels will come off soon
If the wheels do not come off soon, then the whole thing will go even more nuts. "The boom just keeps on getting boomier"

Thus are bubbles born, and living standards raised.
 
If the economy had continued on as normal with no covid or lockdowns we would not have experienced this level of inflation or housing shortages. Yes I know we had housing shortages before but not to this extent.
The lockdowns created this pent up demand of unspent money that has been focused on the housing market, as well as that our population is at its highest ever level as expat Irish returned home like never before. So there are many more people in the market than beforehand.
However I think inflation especially in the energy and food markets are going to suck a lot of those excess savings away along with tax hikes as the government struggles to pay the bills as the ecb will be forced to choke off the magic money due to the above.
 
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