EBS - Offered a tracker the day the were stopped

Discussion in 'Tracker Redress' started by TrackerThieves, Feb 13, 2018.

  1. TrackerThieves

    TrackerThieves Frequent Poster

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    I just want to mention Pardaic is already dealing with this tracker issue. I am mostly posting because of subsequent issues in relation to our account and unsure who deals with them and how serious they actually are. I am also curious if the were others in this situation and and the outcome. Also I would like to gather as much info as I can while waiting for the F.S.O. So I will just post on the initial tracker issue first before going into other issues


    Application for tracker - 13th October 2008:

    After listening to Newstalk back in October 2008, they had advised anyone who was eligible for a tracker to apply as soon as possible as there was talk of them being pulled from the market, LTV was to be below a certain % to be eligible. I made an inquiry and we were eligible (at the time it was a saving of €120-€130 per month) and the EBS sent a letter on the 13th of October 2008 along with 3 application forms.

    • It stated "as per telephone call with xxxx today please find the information requested in relation to the tracker and variable rates". Below, it quoted our existing rate, tracker rate and a new variable rate.
    • Along with the letter there was also 3 application forms(1 for each of the 3 parts of our mortgage)
    • The forms had a rate of ECB + 1.55% and are identical to others I have seen posted on here.
    • The letter also stated "if you wish to avail of the Tracker Rates please sign the enclosed Applications Forms and return to me as soon as possible".


    EBS stop offering trackers – 13th October 2008:

    Once I heard EBS trackers had been pulled I rang the local branch that had sent the forms to check if the offer was still ok. I spoke with the branch manager who told me the offer was no longer valid, as the product was no longer on the market. I believed him at the time but started to doubt it at a later date and now know this was a blatant lie which has been extremely costly for us. Their own press release statement proves the offer should have stood.


    EBS stop offering Tracker mortgages-customers who already have an offer of a tracker mortgage which is not yet drawn down will still be able to avail of the offer within the terms of their loan agreement.


    First Final Letter:

    In September 2015 EBS were asked to investigate our tracker issue. They quickly wrote back with a final response. The letter was extremely badly written used some weak and contradicting excuses. Main excuse was “on the 13th October the xxxx office wrote to Mr xxxx and ms xxxx offering a tracker mortgage product at 1.55% above ECB lending rate. The same day the, EBS announced that they would be withdrawing the tracker product from the market from the close of business that day. At the time the office that wrote to Mr xxxx and Ms xxxx were unaware of this announcement. They then also try to claim that they “were in fact application forms for a tracker rate rather than an acceptance to an offer”.


    Second Final Letter:

    In June 2016 they were asked if we were to be included in the Tracker investigation. In March 2017 we received a second final letter, this time from AIB. "as part of our investigation we also reviewed the content of the final response letter. Regrettable there are obvious inaccuracies for which we must apologise and set the record straight". They then go on to provide different excuses which are still pretty weak points and again contradicting each other. They also state that they deem us not impacted and this was their final response.



    For our particular case and what seemed like it should have be easily resolved there appears to be no end in sight. In 3 years we have had numerous monthly letters stating they are investigating but only 2 actual responses, both of which were final responses which we haven’t been able to challenge or point out the obvious inaccuracies in them. Our only option appears to be, to wait for help from the F.S.O.
     
  2. peemac

    peemac Frequent Poster

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    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
    Padraic is certainly the best to advise on this, but I'd assume that when they say "those with an offer of tracker" that that would mean an official formal loan offer and not just a verbal say so from a local branch.

    Just saw that you had a formal offer - then its difficult to see where the issue is.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  3. TrackerThieves

    TrackerThieves Frequent Poster

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    Tracker application.jpg
     
  4. peemac

    peemac Frequent Poster

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    I can see where they have an arguable case, but it's weak and such situation it should favour the customer.

    I think in ebs that the branch manager had a certain amount of power and was an official of the society.

    I'd be trying to locate a retired ebs branch manager and asking for their opinion.
     
  5. RAzvan R

    RAzvan R Frequent Poster

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    Hi TrackerThieves,
    I contact PK office, hopefully I’ll have all the documents to his office by the end of next week.
    I have some evidence which I believed will help PK with our case and all other customers with similar issues.
    At the moment as you are aware, I was advise to keep the INFO out of BANK site.
    I’ll PM my number for further details.
    Regards,
    RR.
     
  6. gnf_ireland

    gnf_ireland Frequent Poster

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    @TrackerThieves Without stating the obvious, the above document is an application form rather than a letter of offer. I am not sure this would be covered under prior agreements
    Do you have anything which shows your were accepted to be on a tracker by EBS outside of the branch?

    Is what you have listed above an offer or an application ?
    What was the process with EBS a decade ago?
    Just think all of this through and then ensure you are still happy with the argument being put forward
     
    RAzvan R likes this.
  7. TrackerThieves

    TrackerThieves Frequent Poster

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    Although the form states application, under contract law it is clearly an offer. The form even states "the rate will apply from the 1st of the month on receipt of this request", anyway i am happy to leave this in Padraic's capable hands.

    I just wanted to post initial details before i go into other issues, which as far as i am concerned were worse and show what the lenders were really up to
     
  8. gnf_ireland

    gnf_ireland Frequent Poster

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    I will leave that one with the legal guys to agree. I assume there is no EBS signature on it though, and assume it has not gone through the underwriters?
    I assume all legal avenues have been looked at, on both sides !
     
  9. TrackerThieves

    TrackerThieves Frequent Poster

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    Not sure if this is what you mean but there is 2 signatures in the box in the top right for office use. "Office manager signature" is the same person that i spoke with first that sent the letter and the "office manager name" is the manager i spoke to on the phone that told me the offer was no longer valid
     
  10. gnf_ireland

    gnf_ireland Frequent Poster

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    Sorry this is blanked out so no idea if it had been signed or not.

    Its a pity you did not send in the document anyway and let them reject it in writing, but its worth raising a formal complaint and stating the bank manager misled you at the time ! If KBC have signed it, and it is dated on time, then you definitely have a chance
     
  11. TrackerThieves

    TrackerThieves Frequent Poster

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    I have spent the past 3 months making a number of data requests. I have been back and forth with the SAR's team, who in turn have been requesting the data from the ASU. As of today here is some of the requested data that has been confirmed as not available or missing. Exact times and dates have been provided to them and everything has been thoroughly checked. SARS team have been very helpful but ASU seem to be dragging their feet and have been vague in their answers and not willing to confirm anything

    • 14 calls requested between myself and the ASU - 4 confirmed missing
    • 5 call recordings requested between the ASU and third party that was acting on our behalf between 2014-2015 - 2 found 3 confirmed missing. This third party went into liquidation while dealing with EBS on our behalf, they were also charged and found guilty of a number of fraud and forgery offences.
    • 1 call requested between Padraic kissane and the ASU in 2015 - Confirmed as missing
    • letter dated 15th October 2008 ( i have the original)which was sent along with the tracker offers(i have originals of these too) - Confirmed they are unable to find these but admit it should normally be included in the records section of my file.
    • Arrears and transaction documents requested for 2013-2015 as there were some missing from my SAR docs. Confirmed as missing
    • 3 mobile calls. First call i received and other 2 times i rang back on same number. I have requested a number of times for further details on these calls, such as which department this was and if they were incoming or outgoing calls. I have documents in the sars with exact times and dates with notes of these 3 calls which also states all 3 as incoming. Response has been " we could not locate any further information on these calls. We cannot confirm which department or from what type of phone these calls came from as we cannot locate a record of them.
     
  12. TrackerThieves

    TrackerThieves Frequent Poster

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    I have also managed to get hold of an internal EBS e-mail titled retention activity, that was sent to the person I spoke with after my initial enquiry for a tracker rate. It references my account numbers with 3 fixed rates and the tracker rate. There were 2 notes, first said if the member would like to avail of any of these rates can you arrange for the relevant forms to be signed and sent up? The second notes says the tracker rate is valid for 14 days.
     
  13. TrackerThieves

    TrackerThieves Frequent Poster

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    I have also seen these exact forms in other threads on here, does anyone know if these so called application forms were actually formal offers??
     
  14. TrackerThieves

    TrackerThieves Frequent Poster

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    I had recently found details in my documents of 2 more calls between Padraic kissane and the ASU, so I requested them and have been told they are not available/missing making it a total of 10 missing recordings between the ASU during this period from 2014-2015.
    3 of 5 missing Moneybloom and ASU
    3 of 3 missing Padraic Kissane and ASU
    4 of 14 missing between myself and ASU
    can anyone advise on how serious an issue this is as i have yet to speak with Padraic about this. The ASU seem to play it down saying they can't be found on the system as if its no big deal, but the impression i get from the SAR team is that this many missing recordings is quite unusual
     
  15. B26354

    B26354 Frequent Poster

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    Not surprised by this. In last months article by Charlie Weston (see attached link) Padraic Kissane revealed that documents requested by customers via data access requests were being withhheld by banks. I assume this is happening with other information & correspondence like phone calls. Banks fearful of contagion will do whatever they have to do with individual cases so as to avoid redress of thousands even if that means breaking the law.

    https://www.independent.ie/business...-up-to-by-the-main-banks-expert-36683393.html
     
  16. haveaniceday

    haveaniceday Frequent Poster

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    I was also missing info from my FOI From EBS - I know because I have copies of the info and / or references to it in my emails. Only one page was sent to me showing correspondence between my Broker and EBS - I can't imagine they just communicated by phone?
    I spoke to my broker about this and he said there should be a lot more information on file and thought that maybe they just have 'lost' it all.
    I think what this is saying to me, is, that for EBS it is simply better off if it is 'lost'.
     
  17. TrackerThieves

    TrackerThieves Frequent Poster

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    I had advised a work colleague of mine to take out a tracker mortgage at the same time as me in 2008, he was also told by a different EBS branch to mine that his offer no longer stood because they were no longer available. unlike me he got his tracker mortgage eventually after threatening legal action and arguing that he had 14 days to avail of his offer. He has just done a subject access request and bizarrely(but not surprised) there are no documents whatsoever relating to his tracker mortgage or application forms. He had an existing mortgage that was changed to a tracker mortgage some time after 13th October 2008(date they stopped). I'm guessing i need him to follow up and make some detailed requests about these documents and where they are and why they are not there.
     
  18. haveaniceday

    haveaniceday Frequent Poster

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    today i got a registered letter from aib sars - i requested back in june 2018 a list from them in writing of each item i had requested under foi and for them to list each of those items and acknowledge that they did not have them - all they had sent me was a letter saying they had nothing further which did not reflect the rather large amount missing information they did not directly acknowledge.

    I did not get this today I just got a lost of mumbo jumbo! and they also re-sent me a repeat of documents they had already sent BUT this time they included 3 items they had not sent previously - letters between them and my broker, which was pretty strange as their previous letter to me saying they HAD absolutely no further documentation or records?
     
    TrackerThieves likes this.
  19. TrackerThieves

    TrackerThieves Frequent Poster

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    I have had a lot of this, it's been like pulling teeth trying to get them confirm certain items as actually being missing. Say I requested 5 phone recordings after giving the detailed Info from their own documents. They may send me a recording of 2 of the 5 with a registered letter stating here are all the recordings requested(making out they have provided everything requested). I would then have to get back to them and specifically ask about the other 3 and they would respond saying this is everything on their system. I would then have to follow up with a number of further calls to comfirm that the 3 other requested calls were actually calls that should have been recorded and now missing. I have had to make a large number of requests(I made them all through the same person) and the experience I have had is the the sar's team have been quite good and will follow up any specific requests quites quicky and thoroughly and appear to act independently and it seems to me it's the arrears support unit dragging their heels and being reluctant to admit anything
     
    deansmith27 likes this.