EA fees under new rental rule

bkatb1987

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We are exploring renting our house for a max of 6 months. We engaged with an estate agency and their fees for letting are charged on a 12 month basis despite our ask to seek out a tenants for a max of 6 months only. So in our case, its 5% of annual rent, on top of 5% management fee. Is this the standard? At the beginning they had just mentioned 5 & 5 but only now it is stipulated on the contract. EA based in Dublin.
 
I'd be very careful here.

The fact that they are talking about 12 months for fees may mean that they will issue a 12 month 'renewable' lease. These are a disaster for landlords, you in particular, as the tenant will be in for 6 years. Agents love these type of leases and bizarrely they are still being used under the new rules even though they are a complete disaster for landlords.

Even a 6 month fixed lease won't work for you. You need to grant a Part 4 lease and then make 100% sure that you issue the NoT within the time limits and make sure that it is 100% perfect and correct. Otherwise, you will be quite a while getting the property back even if you need it for your own use. Keep in mind also that even with a correctly issued NoT, the tenant may still overhold. This is becoming increasingly common.

As to EA management fees, 10% of the monthly rent sounds right.
 
I know there are EAs that manage for 6% plus VAT. No upfront fee. And they get nothing if the tenant doesn't pay each month. But that's on the basis of an ongoing rental.

The "management" tends to be that they take the calls, but if there's a problem, they inevitably call you, saying they've had their maintenance people (third party contractors) out to the house and they can fix the small issue of the broken handle on the toilet but their maintenance people expect it will cost FIVE HUNDRED EURO., which then gets deducted off the rent the EA sends you at the end of the month.

You are therefore faced with the unenviable position of saying actually no I think it should be cheaper and want it cheaper, so they say ok, well, here's the number for the tenant, fix it yourself, please confirm when it's fixed. So you're basically held over a barrel on the maintenance cost - and my experience is that the landlord agrees to the expensive maintenance to avoid the hassle, generally because they pay tax, usc and prsi at that higher rate so the government pays 52.4% of the maintenance cost.
 
We are exploring renting our house for a max of 6 months.
If it's your house, I would be very concerned of the cost of putting back your house the way you want it after the rental. Between your initial cost (clearing, storage), the EA costs and the after costs, are you sure it is worth it? From experience, the wear and tears is high in rentals.
 
The "management" tends to be that they take the calls, but if there's a problem, they inevitably call you, saying they've had their maintenance people (third party contractors) out to the house and they can fix the small issue of the broken handle on the toilet but their maintenance people expect it will cost FIVE HUNDRED EURO., which then gets deducted off the rent the EA sends you at the end of the month.
I used to think like this. This is my first year hiring an agent. Super professional. The relief in not having to handle stuff. So far I don’t consider the call out charges etc exorbitant. The agents people are very good in who they send out. My contact told my tenant if it was his fault the kitchen sink drain was blocked by him putting down food he’d be charged, needless to say he solved the problem himself. When I met him he proudly to,do me about this, omitting that my agent was going to charge him.
 
This is my first year hiring an agent. Super professional.
Yes, like everything, there are good and bad, and sometimes if you pay peanuts you get monkeys. One thing I would say is that it's not super easy to fire the agent if they collect the rent, you have the issue of opening yourself up to the tenant. This particular agent was local and a smaller owner-managed business, which I thought would help. It was not a complete disaster (rent was nearly always paid within reasonable limits (a few days here or there, and the tenants did not overhold (though I gave them them the required (very long) notice period).

My agent did a pre-termination review, and told me everything looked fine for a property after 4 years of letting, when I entered the house, the place was pretty filthy, and the tenants agreed that I could deduct cleaning and repairs from the deposit, but yes, that agent had a different interpretation of the standards to which property should be kept.

There was very much a "you have to expect wear and tear" and "the property will not be in the same condition when you get it back", at the outset and regardless of how you interpret that, cleaning the grease out of ovens and off kitchen cabinets (amongst many other things) is a bit manky - one of the tenants told me (on the day they were supposed to have left but were in bed when I arrived at the property) that he had stopped cooking in the kitchen because of the state of it, and that he would be more selective about who he would move in with in the future.

By that stage my engagement with the agents was already ending, but essentially they didn't undertake the pre-termination review properly, there were matters to be addressed that clearly should have been at the tenants' expense and should have been repaired before I took back possession (e.g. broken panes of glass), they were not managed so I then had to rectify the issues at considerable inconvenience, even though I did pass on some of the monetary cost to the tenants via a deduction from the deposit - really it should all have been sorted for me before I re-entered - the agent had time to do all that but made no effort - I tried to not be too pernickety and not to overburden the agent but my kindness was taken for weakness!
 
the place was pretty filthy, and the tenants agreed that I could deduct cleaning
That's generally difficult anyway if you don't intend to use a cleaning company.
Wear and tear is also difficult because, apart if it's clearly smashed, most of the things could be wear and tear. There's a difference between the wear and tear when one is careful and the wear and tear when one isn't.
 
The "management" tends to be that they take the calls, but if there's a problem, they inevitably call you, saying they've had their maintenance people (third party contractors) out to the house and they can fix the small issue of the broken handle on the toilet but their maintenance people expect it will cost FIVE HUNDRED EURO., which then gets deducted off the rent the EA sends you at the end of the month.
That happens as well - a stitch up between the management company and their maintainence guys and you get charged a fortune for small matters, plus everything time they inspect they find a list of things which need doing. But it's only landlords who are greedy and dishonest.
 
I stopped using agents in 2013. I had engaged a well known agent and in 3 years had 2 tenants. The agent was great at collecting the rent. Thats about it. One month I got a bill for €1200 for a new oven. Only 6 weeks before that I had a new oven put into my own house at a cost of €320. I asked the agent why it cost €1200 for an oven and they just said that was what their installer charged them. The same for a hoover. €250 when the one I had bought for my own house cost €80 and was a very good hoover. Then of course when the first tenant left after 9 months and I had to replace the washing machine. This time I told them up front that they better not rip me off on the washing machine and they got one in for a reasonable price. They charged me another finders fee as well as rent collection for the new tenant. A new sofa cost me €1000. That tenant moved out and I took back control of the apartment. When I got into it I saw that the washing machine door was bent like someone had been standing on it and would not close properly, so i had to buy another new one. The sofa was definitely not 2 months old and was something at least 10 years old with broken legs even though the agent insisted a new sofa was put in. I asked for a proper invoice with the name and model of the sofa because i knew they wouldnt know the name model of a second hand sofa but if it was a new on should be on an invoice and they couldnt supply that. They just said that the supplier didnt give that much info.

I found out later from someone I know who worked for an agent years ago that they just collect the rent and find tenants. After that you are on your own. All they will do is take calls and outsource what needs to be done without checking if they are getting value for money from them. So if you are using an agent make sue you instruct them to run EVERYTHING by you and watch them closely.

Oh, and I nearly forgot. The walls had had pictures hung up all over the place with hilty nails, so when the nails are taken out half the plaster and even the block comes out with it. They had to be taken out and the walls repaired and repainted. When I asked how much of the deposit they kept for this they said none, that it was just wear and tear so they gave the tenant back their full deposit. That was 2013. I suspect its near impossible to to deny wear and tear on that sort thing nowadays too.
 
Yes, a lot of them are only interested in finding you a tenant, any tenant, as you pay them for that service and if the tenant is a problem, he's your problem. After that, they'll just collect the rent. Your problem again if it isn't paid.

They are very interested in getting new landlords on board now for two reasons. Firstly a lot of their existing landlords have sold up and left. Secondly, if they were getting 10% of €1,000 up to now, when the property lets again it'll be 10% of €2,000 so they have doubled their income for no additional work at all. Of course, only landlords are greedy.
 
Yes, a lot of them are only interested in finding you a tenant, any tenant, as you pay them for that service and if the tenant is a problem, he's your problem. After that, they'll just collect the rent. Your problem again if it isn't paid.
This was my impression in the past, my new agent is not at all like this. Agent is very very strict with the tenants. No messing allowed.
 
Villaines thank you for sharing your experience but I've a few issues with it. You mention the agents paid the rent within a few days of receiving rent as though this was an issue? Maybe I misunderstood your point? The long notice period has nothing to do with the agent. It seems you had good tenants who paid their rent on time and left when you wanted them to?

after 4 years of letting, when I entered the house, the place was pretty filthy, and the tenants agreed that I could deduct cleaning and repairs from the deposit, but yes, that agent had a different interpretation of the standards to which property should be kept.
There is not a property ever that I have let that didn't need a thorough cleaning. That's even after good tenants. After 4 years I'd expect to have to paint it. Even this flight wasn't actually an issue for you as you were able to deduct the cost of cleaning? You know as a landlord in Ireland Wear and Tear is a very broad church, we only have to look at the RTB rulings to know the bar is very tolerant of this aspect.
cleaning the grease out of ovens and off kitchen cabinets (amongst many other things) is a bit manky - one of the tenants told me (on the day they were supposed to have left but were in bed when I arrived at the property) that he had stopped cooking in the kitchen because of the state of it, and that he would be more selective about who he would move in with in the future.
This you have to admit is funny ! As it happens I met one of my new tenants for the first time recently, he had no idea, despite being informed, in writing, that I was coming, and descended the stairs around 12 noon half dressed (this seems to be an Irish standard of which I'm' well acquainted)

By that stage my engagement with the agents was already ending, but essentially they didn't undertake the pre-termination review properly, there were matters to be addressed that clearly should have been at the tenants' expense and should have been repaired before I took back possession (e.g. broken panes of glass), they were not managed so I then had to rectify the issues at considerable inconvenience, even though I did pass on some of the monetary cost to the tenants via a deduction from the deposit - really it should all have been sorted for me before I re-entered - the agent had time to do all that but made no effort - I tried to not be too pernickety and not to overburden the agent but my kindness was taken for weakness!

So you got the costs of the repairs back from the tenants and thought the agent should have organised the repairs for you, even though your contract was over with him. Of course the agent had zero interest if he was not going to make any more money out of managing the property.

What did you do for the next rental?
 
that I have let that didn't need a thorough cleaning. That's even after good tenants. After 4 years I'd expect to have to paint
This is all well and good if your rent is high but spending 2500 minimum to get a place painted every 3/4 years is different when the rent is low. In addition to painting, mattress would need to be changed, silicone and grout redone... And thorough cleaning and diy jobs. Rentals are just places that are not maintained and taken care for the duration of the tenancy. I have decided that if I rent again, it would be without mattresses as I am fed up to have to change them after less than 4 years rentals. (New mattress protectors are provided, but clearly not used)
 
if I rent again, it would be without mattresses
Yes. Rentals are only required to have white goods, anything extra is the landlords decision. Seems crazy to fully fit out a property when rents are restricted. Is there some reason other than custom why landlords here spend thousands on furniture and fittings? A freshly painted shell with white goods is not unusual in other countries.
 
Yes I get it about the mattresses. Honestly in this day and age it would be better tenants brought their own. Obviously I supple very god mattress protectors too. I googled best buys and purchased a bed from Ikea with washable covers, and got a super mattress, having slept in it myself I directly bought a second one for another unit. Which made me wonder why my excellent home mattresses were so expensive. Last month one of my UK based children moved into a new rental with a dingy mattress, with my advice they asked their landlady, who is in New Zealand and she said yes, I gave the ikea code, child bought the mattress, delivered cheaply, in a roll, and council took away old mattress. I think it was about 300 GBP because Ikea has reduced the price.

I’ve no idea if I can deduct a mattress cost at the end of the rental if it’s destroyed !
 
When I was renting I always did so "unfurnished". Less hassle for me and the fact that the furniture was the tenants' own meant they saw the space more as their own and looked after it as such. There may have been a bump or scratch on doors during moves, but it really wasnt a big deal..
 
Answering my own query here….
It seems that unfurnished rentals had more protection under the rent restrictions acts in 1946-60 so landlords provided furnished and could ask higher rents. The rent control laws were challenged and repealed in 1982 but landlords just continued to let fully furnished. Ireland is an outlier in the EU, rentals in some countries (Germany, Austria, Netherlands, Spain, Italy, Nordics) are shells, many don’t even have kitchens. In France, a fully furnished dwelling is legally for one year only, longer is unfurnished. Most furnished rentals in EU countries are aimed at short stay tenants eg students or ex-pats.

We may eventually move to a PRS similar to the rest of the EU (or Austria which we’re told is a renters utopia) but furnished or not doesn’t really change the outlook for individual private landlords now - they are so strictly regulated that every aspect of the business seems like a dangerous minefield.
 
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We may eventually move to a PRS similar to the rest of the EU (or Austria which we’re told is a renters utopia) but furnished or not doesn’t really change the outlook for individual private landlords now - they are so strictly regulated that every aspect of the business seems like a dangerous minefield.
Also, if long term tenants here were responsible for repairs and maintenance, then you could cut out alot of the regulation and enforcement - no need to be checking up on whether there is a microwave on dings on the skirting boards if those are the tenants responsibility.

It is crazy that here with one month's deposit you can stay in a place until you die, have your children take over and have zero responsibility for repairs and maintenance. I doubt any other European country has that system. The tenancy might be for as long as the tenant wants but deposits are larger and the tenant has far more responsibilities.
 
What did you do for the next rental?
I haven't re-let the property. The family member is still in situ. Not sure I would like to continue in the letting business. My tax rate would be 52.5% on all the income.
So you got the costs of the repairs back from the tenants and thought the agent should have organised the repairs for you, even though your contract was over with him. Of course the agent had zero interest if he was not going to make any more money out of managing the property.
Yes, it seems like you suggest that where the EA is not going to get any further business (at the termination of the tenancy and letting arrangement) that they have "zero interest" in addressing some of the issues that the landlord might be concerned by so perhaps the OP will consider this when appointing the EA and the landlord's general expectations of EA responsibilities.
 
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