Dublin bus routes privatised.

Discussion in 'Economic issues' started by TheBigShort, Aug 10, 2017.

  1. Firefly

    Firefly Frequent Poster

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    That's very interesting....it's an old argument held by those against the liberalising of transport routes that the unprofitable / quieter routes would lose out!!
     
  2. dereko1969

    dereko1969 Frequent Poster

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    Purple you're quoting research carried out by a pro-car lobby group that is based on reports from 2 councils in the UK. Emissions calculated on UK buses with EURO 3 vehicles, Dublin Bus have mostly EURO 5 vehicles with newer buses EURO 6 - these are the buses that will be used by Go Ahead. Essentially that report is rubbish.

    No one here seems to have a problem with LUAS, this is the exact same model as used for LUAS. Go Ahead have stated what they can provide the service for, the fare box goes to the NTA, all fares are decided by the NTA. Go Ahead are providing the service for less money than Dublin Bus, that's a saving for the taxpayer.

    As for your ludicrous statement that the full fare should be paid without subsidy, you really should think that through. How would our cities work without public transport? It has to be subsidised. Essentially only those that can afford cars would be able to get to work at any place distant to their homes and it would take forever to do so if there was no subsidy for fares. You usually talk some degree of sense but not on this occasion.
     
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  3. odyssey06

    odyssey06 Frequent Poster

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    I think outside of the times when you'd expect students to be coming to \ from DCU, you could replace it with a 'black cab'.
    One of the quietest - if not the quietest - bus route in Dublin.
    I don't think anyone would be running the route for profit with a bus - it would only be done as part of a tender \ subsidy \ package of routes.
     
  4. Firefly

    Firefly Frequent Poster

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    Those who would like to see the market opened up usually make this argument, i.e. package the "good" and "bad" routes and put the lot out to tender with strict service level agreements. I think what's being proposed is about the best middle ground. I would however like to see the scheme expanded to routes going into the city centre. I would imagine the taxpayer could get a big windfall on the tenders for these.
     
  5. dereko1969

    dereko1969 Frequent Poster

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    Slowy slowy catchy monkey
     
  6. Purple

    Purple Frequent Poster

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    Those are the same EURO standards that VW got such great results on? There's bugger all difference between EURO 3 and EURO 5 emissions levels and as Dublin Bus don't release statistics for passenger per Km traveled we just don't know what their CO2 and NOx levels are. The level to which engines are maintained has a huge impact on the amount they pollute so quoting emissions levels for new buses, which could well have be falsified anyway, tells us very little. I don't think behaviour patterns in a city in the UK and a city in Ireland will be greatly different.

    The LUAS is electric and much of it's lines are not on public roads.
    Not if the old drivers are wondering around various depots around Dublin with nothing to do but drawing the same wage.

    Last year Dublin Bus carried 125 million passengers and received nearly €100 million in subsidies (€57 million to cover the Public Service Obligation and the rest in other payments to buy new buses etc. That means there is a subsidy of €0.80 per journey. For someone using the bus to get to work each day that's an extra €4.00 per week.
    Do you really think that would cause society to break down or push people to buy cars when the average cost of running a car is over €200 a week?

    Really?


    Really?
     
  7. TheBigShort

    TheBigShort Frequent Poster

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    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017 at 7:14 PM
    The 125 million passengers, being taxpayers themselves, contribute in equal measure to the subsidy through their taxes as non-passengers do.
    None of us know who, or when, or how many times any one of us will use or never use the public transport system. My kids, when they grow up, may move to Dublin and need to use public transport. That's why I'm happy to contribute a relatively miniscule amount to ensure a continued vital service in our capital city.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017 at 7:14 PM
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  8. TheBigShort

    TheBigShort Frequent Poster

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    Yes, that's all very positive. But another posted claimed that the 104 service is 90% of time almost empty.
    It's hard to marry the two views. One would suggest increasing capacity for passengers, the other would suggest that the service shouldn't even exist.
     
  9. odyssey06

    odyssey06 Frequent Poster

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    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017 at 7:43 PM
    I should also point out that East Point business park has 5000+ staff and has no public bus route serving it.
    (There is a free shuttle bus from Clontarf DART station to it but you have to get to the DART station first...)
    East Point is 2.5 kms from the 104 route.

    This is my roundabout way of saying I think the current routes we have are far from optimal.

    I think it is a missed opportunity that in the tender process there doesn't seem to be any scope for Go Ahead to expand the routes (as long as they don't overlap with the stops of other routes).
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017 at 7:43 PM
  10. TheBigShort

    TheBigShort Frequent Poster

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    If services and prices stay the same, then presumably Go Ahead will need a state subsidy to make any sort of profit? Either that, or they will have to cut costs. How will they cut costs?
     
  11. Protocol

    Protocol Frequent Poster

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    There is huge overstaffing in many CIE services.

    I am friendly with a retired BE bus driver. He tells me of the waste / poor rostering / excessive driver numbers.

    All this came out during strikes.

    [I know of two porters in UCHG who do nothing but watch videos after manager leaves at 4:30.]

    So costs need to be cut, yes, but wages don't.

    Pay the same wage, but hire less staff.

    Strikes have shown us how many excessive BE drivers there are.
     
  12. Protocol

    Protocol Frequent Poster

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    There are 62 payroll offices in the HSE, another example of massive overstaffing and inefficiency.

    We overspend on health, and yet have massive waiting lists.
     
  13. Protocol

    Protocol Frequent Poster

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    The Go-Ahead fee may be more than the fare-box revenue, yes, so of course there may be a subsidy.
     
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  14. Firefly

    Firefly Frequent Poster

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    They are probably more efficient and have less waste and so can offer the same services for a lower price.
     
  15. Firefly

    Firefly Frequent Poster

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    Well that's up to the new company to determine. It has been stated that existing services will stay the same and so to will prices. If the new company were happy to bid for this business it just goes to show how they think they can make money on such quieter routes.
     
  16. Firefly

    Firefly Frequent Poster

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    I agree with all that, however I fail to see the relevance to this thread. The same services are being maintained with the same price to the customer.
     
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  17. Purple

    Purple Frequent Poster

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    That argument can be made to provide any public service or utility free at the point of consumption.
    Every Irish water customer is also a tax payer (although only 30% are net contributors) so they shouldn't have to pay for water. Every ESB/Energy company customer is also a tax payer (although only 30% are net contributors) so they shouldn't have to pay for energy.

    How about motorists; they are tax payers, should they get their petrol/diesel for free or heavily subsidised?
    While we are giving people water for free why not give everyone food as well? Not just a set amount they need to live on but as much food as they want. Sure isn't food essential for life? It's a human right!
    Same goes for houses; the government should just give everyone a house too, not just anywhere though, it will have to be where they want it to be or else they will move out, say they are living in their car with their kids and RTE and the tabloids will run sob-stories about them...

    If you want to subsidise public transport then fine but please don't trot out the same old BS about everyone being tax payers as a justification.
     
  18. newirishman

    newirishman Frequent Poster

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    You are missing a couple of points here. First, the number of (income) taxpayers (excluding VAT for the moment) is shockingly low in Ireland. Second, the number of passengers actually paying for using public transport is probably leven lower.

    "Minuscule amount" must clearly be a joke I am not getting. Monthly / annual tickets are insanely expensive for what you get, compared with similar sized European cities. I guess somebody must pay for all the free travel passes.

    In Vienna, for example, the yearly ticket covering all available modes of public transport costs 365 euro.
    Yes, 1 euro per day for unlimited travel on any public transport system in all of the city (into some suburbs). That is all tubes, trams, busses, trains.

    Stuttgart, to use another example, has some zone based systems but has yearly tickets starting at around 650 euro. Again, *all vailable* public transport types.

    Paris: 827 euro for the most expensive one.

    In Dublin, if you want / need a ticket for bus / luas / dart it will set you back 2180 euro. 2.5 times more expensive than Paris. And that is for a service that is essentially really bad.
     
  19. MrEarl

    MrEarl Frequent Poster

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    It would take a hell of a lot of bus journeys to cover the cost of my annual road tax for my car - so I don't think you are correct about anyone subsidising me. Actually, I would suggest that indirectly, I am subsidising them, when you consider the cost of running my car.

    Bring in a public transport system that is reliable, efficient, takes me where I want to go and when and I'd be happy to use it more. As things stand, I use the bus when it suits, but it doesn't always suit. Unlike some of the good people in South Dublin, I don't have the option of a Luas and Dart within minutes of my house, so perhaps you might like to consider that myself (and others who don't have those services nearby) are actually subsidising those individuals. Then there's the cyclists, that pay nothing and yet benefit from the roads, cycle lanes, traffic control and safety measures (which half of them sadly ignore !) etc. :)
     
  20. Delboy

    Delboy Frequent Poster

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    And if your paying tax at the higher rate, you'll save half the cost of that ticket. So €1,110 is the true cost.
    That 2,180 also includes commuter rail which you forgot to mention!