Dr Tormey V's Prof Cassidy

[Queenspawn]

I'm a bit surprised that this seems to have fallen of the media radar but the other morning a Dr Tormey of Beaumont hosp (consultant pathologist) came on RTE radio to air his disagreement with Prof. Cassidy's findings* regarding the Murphy case.

First I want to make it clear I don't want to talk about the case per se, what I'm interested in exploring is what possessed this most protective clique of professionals (medics) to break ranks in this manner. From Drogheda we have been shown that they do have a tendency to protect their own (not unique I grant you c.f. Donegal Gardai). But this is THE most high profile case involving forensic pathology on the last 20 years, so to choose this case of all cases to publicly offer a major criticism is very noteworthy. I have some other observations that I would like to explore should anyone care to join in.

* in particular her conclusion that it was "most likely" that death was casued by alcohol-induced apnoea.

NatChessmen (AKA Queenspawn)

 

[Purple]

I found the whole episode strange as I don’t see how Dr. Tormey had access to the same level of detail that Dr. Casey had. It was also strange that he only sent his letter to one Newspaper, if he wanted to get his concerns out into the open why not send his letter to RTE and the Irish Times as well.
Maybe I’m cynical but could this have anything to do with Independent counsellor Tormey’s decision to run for the Dail as an FG candidate in the next election?

 

[ubiquitous]

It was reported yesterday that Dr Cassidy had "conceded" that Dr. Tormey's criticisms are/were valid.

Another case was outlined on Prime Time last night that involved what appears to be another highly questionable verdict on the part of Dr. Cassidy.

I found the whole episode strange as I don’t see how Dr. Tormey had access to the same level of detail that Dr. Casey had.

I have no access to any detail of forensic evidence but it strikes me as odd to conclude that Brian Murphy died because the three pints of beer he drank caused his brain to shut down. There is no evidence of this happening previously anywhere in the world where the victims had consumed similar levels of alcohol. Cases of this nature have occurred in the past where the victims have had blood-alcohol levels which were multiples of the level recorded in respect of Mr. Murphy.

It was also strange that he only sent his letter to one Newspaper, if he wanted to get his concerns out into the open why not send his letter to RTE and the Irish Times as well.
Maybe I’m cynical but could this have anything to do with Independent counsellor Tormey’s decision to run for the Dail as an FG candidate in the next election?

If Dr Tormey's motivation was to generate publicity, surely he would have written to more than one newspaper? If he had written to all papers, he would have been accused of drumming up publicity for himself.

 

[Purple]

It was reported yesterday that Dr Cassidy had "conceded" that Dr. Tormey's criticisms are/were valid.

I'm not disputing this but can you post a link as I'd lime to read more detail?

If Dr Tormey's motivation was to generate publicity, surely he would have written to more than one newspaper? If he had written to all papers, he would have been accused of drumming up publicity for himself.

All politicians like to have friendly Journalists, look at Sam Smith and the minister of Justice.
I know very little about Bill Tormey but when I have heard him speak I found him populist in the extreme.

 

[car]

should this be in LOS?

 

[DrMoriarty]

Yes, I think so.

 

[ubiquitous]

can you post a link

Irish Indo yesterday - presumably the other papers as well. I don't read newspapers online so I'm afraid you'll have to look for the links yourself.

All politicians like to have friendly Journalists,

I presume the Indo journalists who covered this story this week can defend themselves if accused of bias, but as a daily Indo reader for the past 5 years, I don't think I have ever seen Dr Tormey feature in the paper before. Maybe someone can contradict me on this if I'm wrong.

I know very little about Bill Tormey but when I have heard him speak I found him populist in the extreme.

That is your opinion. I don't know anything about Dr Tormey so I can't comment on whether he is populist or otherwise. What I do know is that his criticisms of Dr Cassidy's findings appear to me to make sense. I must stress in all of this that I have absolutely no expertise in medicine or forensics so I have to stress that this is only my opinion.

In making up my own mind on this case, I would prefer to dwell on the facts rather than the personalities involved. If Dr. Tormey's comments had come from a senior politician, I would still have listened to them. Just because Joe Higgins is a TD, that did not stop him from being 100% correct in his allegations against Gama.

 

[Humpback]

I found the whole episode strange as I don’t see how Dr. Tormey had access to the same level of detail that Dr. Casey had.

He didn't. However, he did have details of the blood/alcohol leve in the victims system after death. Allowing for changes in this level postmortem, his position was based on the fact that the cause of death postulated by Dr. Cassidy has never shown to have happened with as small a level of blood/alcohol in any previous victims of similar (supposed) causes of death.

It was also strange that he only sent his letter to one Newspaper, if he wanted to get his concerns out into the open why not send his letter to RTE and the Irish Times as well.

He clearly stated on the radio interview that the reason for a letter to the Independent was in direct response to a statement or assertion in that newspaper that the conclusion of Dr.Cassidy could be likened to the victim having died primarily because of the amount of alcohol he had consumed on the night of his death. Based on the above, and through a review of available research, Dr.Tormey was asserting that this was "most likely" not the case.

Maybe I’m cynical but could this have anything to do with Independent counsellor Tormey’s decision to run for the Dail as an FG candidate in the next election?

I like a conspiracy theory as much as the next person, but I don't see where this could possibly be politically motivated. How can the actions of Dr.Cassidy impact in any way on the current government?

 

[bearishbull]

I have no access to any detail of forensic evidence but it strikes me as odd to conclude that Brian Murphy died because the three pints of beer he drank caused his brain to shut down. There is no evidence of this happening previously anywhere in the world where the victims had consumed similar levels of alcohol. Cases of this nature have occurred in the past where the victims have had blood-alcohol levels which were multiples of the level recorded in respect of Mr. Murphy.

she didnt say the 3 pints caused his brain to shut down but that some people when having consumed even moderate amounts of alcohol are much more likely to have this brain injury when a normally mild blow to head is received.this happens a lot despite you sayint"this has not happened anywhere in world before" ,i have personal experience of a neighbour who had a few drinks fell and hit his head (not too hard) on the ground and died from this thing.

 

[ubiquitous]

she didnt say the 3 pints caused his brain to shut down but that some people when having consumed even moderate amounts of alcohol are much more likely to have this brain injury when a normally mild blow to head is received.this happens a lot despite you sayint"this has not happened anywhere in world before" ,i have personal experience of a neighbour who had a few drinks fell and hit his head (not too hard) on the ground and died from this thing.

I said above that I have absolutely no expertise in medicine or forensics so maybe I didn't put my point as well as I should.

Ronan D John made the same point above, but in a much clearer way, when he said

the conclusion of Dr.Cassidy could be likened to the victim having died primarily because of the amount of alcohol he had consumed on the night of his death.

 

[bearishbull]

Quote:
the conclusion of Dr.Cassidy could be likened to the victim having died primarily because of the amount of alcohol he had consumed on the night of his death.

Clearly not. She concluded that the mild brain injury was magnified by alcohol consumption like in the below case

Beth Israel Medical Center, New York, New York 10003, USA.
We encountered 5 deaths following blunt trauma to the face and head in which the injuries were predominantly soft tissue in nature with absence of skull fractures, intracranial bleeding, or detectable injury to the brain. All individuals were intoxicated, with blood ethanol levels ranging from 0.22 to 0.33 g/dl. We feel that in these deaths, ethanol augmentation of the effects of concussive brain injury, with resultant posttraumatic apnea, was the mechanism of death.

 

[Humpback]

Quote:
the conclusion of Dr.Cassidy could be likened to the victim having died primarily because of the amount of alcohol he had consumed on the night of his death.

Clearly not. She concluded that the mild brain injury was magnified by alcohol consumption like in the below case

Exactly. Dr.Cassidy never said this. Nor did Dr.Tormey say that she said this. However, Dr.Tormey said on radio that he was responding to an article in the Irish Independent which apparently extrapolated from her statement that the reason for the victims death was because of the amount of alcohol he had consumed.

Based on reading this in the newspaper, Dr.Tormey stated that he was amazed by such an assertion, which led him to follow up further, both on the contents of Dr.Cassidys statement, and on the research available in the field.

It was based on his review of both these aspects of the case, that Dr.Tormey felt that the "most likely" part of Dr.Cassidys conclusions were incorrect.

The letter is here (free registration required). The article which Dr.Tormey was responding to is linked to here. The headline says it all, "Drink 'main factor' in Anabel victim's death".

 

[bearishbull]

the more worrying thing is the difference of opinion between cassidy and harbison on brian murphy case.

 

[bearishbull]

surely cassidy wouldnt overlook "Shear injury and neuropraxia" as tormay claims,shear injury would be visable upon inspection and neuropraxia is just nerve disfunction which is similar or same as nerve disfunction in "brain apnea"

 

[Humpback]

the more worrying thing is the difference of opinion between cassidy and harbison on brian murphy case.

Why is this worrying?

People would be crying foul and conspiracy and cover up if there was universal agreement.

Isn't a "2nd opinion" something that is common practice in medicine?

 

[bearishbull]

Why is this worrying?

People would be crying foul and conspiracy and cover up if there was universal agreement.

Isn't a "2nd opinion" something that is common practice in medicine?

yeah but to have two such wildy different interpretations from the states two pathologists is amazing,there may be some difference of opinion on unclear aspects of a case but its like they were both looking at a different body.it says to me that one of them was very very wrong.

 

[Humpback]

yeah but to have two such wildy different interpretations from the states two pathologists is amazing,

Dr.Tormey isn't a state pathologist.

 

[JohnnyBoy]

The fact that Dr Tormey isn't state pathologist makes him no lessqualified to comment.
can I make a no of oints
1.Prof harbison performed the autopsy & examined the body,Dr Cassidy only saw photographs & reports
2.As for "my neigbour fell bumped his head after a few drinks & died" being the same as alcohol induced apnoea,well it's not.Apnoea IS extremely rare.
3.Dr Cassidy has a history of " disputed calls" in Scotland.I'm not slighting her judgement as no 2 Drs will give an identical judgement,however I would give more weight to a Dr who has seen the body,than 1 who has merely seen photographs.

 

[bearishbull]

Dr.Tormey isn't a state pathologist.

I think you misunderstood me ,im referring to prof harbison and prof cassidy who gave widely different accounts from the same evidence,both were/are the chief state pathologist and the case wasnt a particularly difficult one to decide on.

 

[Purple]

can anyone post the exact text of what Dr. Casey said, or a link to same?