Domestic heating options

S

Sparki74

Registered User
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54
Hi all,


I am currently in the process of building a new home. As part of the process I am looking at the most energy efficient process for providing domestic heating and hot water. I have done a comprehensive analysis of a variety of options and I have narrowed the options down to two items.

The first one is oil to heat the house as well as hot water and then to have solar to heat the domestic hot water (particularly during summer months).

1) Oil boiler:

The two options for oil boilers are an oil condensing boiler and a full balanced oil combination boiler. Typically the condensing boiler is 55% more expensive than the combination boiler. The Geminox condensing boiler costs about 4100 euros inclusive of vat and the Geminox combination boiler costs about 2600 euros inclusive of vat. Is the extra cost of the condensing boiler worth it? What is the typical return on the extra cost?

2) Solar Heating:

On investigation of the solar option I found that the cost of solar water heating is quite high. Typical quotations that I have received include the following:

The supply of the solar domestic hot water production system (3 solar panels) & the domestic hot water cylinder to suit solar costs roughly 5000 euros. Then the installation costs roughly 2000 euros. Then take off 1800 euros grant the net cost comes to 5200 euros.

I have also found out that there is an added cost for putting flashings on the roof for installing the solar panels. I don’t have a cost estimate for this but I am expecting the added cost to be around 500 euros.

Given the added cost of the solar system together with the potential problems/costs that could possibly happen with installing solar panels on the roof is solar heating of domestic hot water a viable option?

Any thoughts on these matters would be greatly appreciated.
 
You don't state what type of heating you want........ufh or rads.

If UFH, imho, I wouldn't use oil. I have gas in my current house, and just been fitted in my new one. (1 tonne LPG tank..)

1. I'd always fit a super condensing boiler. My Vaillant gas one cost Eur 2k.

2. Solar, well, I've got 3 panels too, and my grant came to Eur 2800......also, you don't have to have 'in roof' panels - mine are 'on roof' panels........so that makes that job easier.
 
Hi Galway man :)

Ta for your comments. We are building in the countryside where there is no gas line, so we will be going for oil on that front.

After thinking hard and long about ufh and geothermal, we are going with rads and oil, as with geothermal, there is a lack of control on temp (1 hour to heat each inch of concrete), cool down rate is slow (Ireland has 40 seasons in one day), and also the cost of electricity for bringing the natural geothermal heat from the ground to a useable heat in the house. Many people I know have ESB bills that are criminal since they got this heating system in. In addition, I know of some well known established geothermal installers, who have had to take out their system from a client's house, and install oil instead, all at the company's expense. Sorry, I ranted....

Your thoughts on installing the panels is a good idea. How do you find them? are they heating the water ok?
 
Sparki, you certainly have frightened me as a potential geothermal user with your examples of problems caused by it.
 
As an alternative to oil, how about a wood pellet/chip boiler for heating combined with the solar panels. IMO the optimal combination particularly if you have a well oriented site for the solar panels.
 
Unfortunately Ireland is currently flooded with cowboys who are now installing heat pumps and pellet stoves and costing the customers a fortune.

If u get a right installer, as in our case, you will have a working system which does not cost u the earth. After 10 months we are averaging about 15 euro per week ESB costs for the geo with on demand hotwater. But we did put in tighter loops in our UFH in order to reduce the running temp, therefore reducing the cost to run it.
 
yop said:
After 10 months we are averaging about 15 euro per week ESB costs for the geo with on demand hotwater. But we did put in tighter loops in our UFH in order to reduce the running temp, therefore reducing the cost to run it.
Click to expand...


15 euro/wk means nothing in regard to the topic. Do you never watch TV, boil the kettle, use an electric oven, switch on lights etc. ?

Unless you are talking about 15 euro a week JUST for the UFH/Geothermal....in which case that's a whole lot of money !!!!

But then what size house are you on about ?

We need perspective with amounts or it's a "my house costs more than yours to heat" without mentioning shoebox Vs mansion.
 
We were planning to put in the wood pellet stove, but the size of the pellet storage area was taking up too much space. We didn't think about the size and location of its storage area before we submitted our plans to the council. A little bit of bad planning in our case.

Regarding cowboys putting in the geo systems, I agree that there are a lot of cowboys out there. However, this company is not a cowboy operation, the company is known to probably most people who have looked into geo in Munster - I'd prefer not to give its name. It pays to do the homework. However if you are happy with how the geo has worked out, then that's great. No one wants anyone to lose out.

So do anymore of you have solar panels then - extra costs (flashings etc)??


Lovely day isn't it :)
 
My panels aren't 'switched on' yet, but I'm hopeful. I was prepared to go with a small cost for the convenience of it. I was in local house on Tuesday, and will be there again tomorrow, and was looking at them working - the temp of the panel was so high you couldn't put your hand on the pipe............good enough for me - and that was an windy site......

As for the gas, I'm rural too, and don't have a pipeline either....I've a tank, not dissimilar in size to an oil tank. My heating cost p.a. for all water, 2 x fires and heating in my current 2200sq ft, is Eur 1100 p.a. I have no immersion, and no elec showers - everything runs of the gas. I don't find that expensive. Besides, I hate the smell of oil boilers in the house.....I don't care what anyone says, but eventually, they get smelly......

Ditto on the Geothermo..........jury still out for me, on that one........

Not convinced of wood pellet systems, either..............
 
I looked up a few websites etc. on the types of renewable energy that you can use to heat your home as I would like to find out more before starting my build.

I was looking at Geothermal heating but there were alot of disadvantages for the Geothermal heating on the websites such as wooden floors cracking and certain patches of the floor were extremely hotter and uncomfotable to walk on than other parts of the floor. This kinda turned me from this option.

As for the Wood Pellets some people say there great, others say there very expensive, and don't throw out much heat. It's hard to decide but I think Oil is coming out on top at the moment for me although it is not a renewable energy.

Solar panels seem to be a good option however, good comments on websites about these. I know there are also different types so you can possible decide how much your willing to spend on this.
 
Pique318 said:
15 euro/wk means nothing in regard to the topic. Do you never watch TV, boil the kettle, use an electric oven, switch on lights etc. ?

Unless you are talking about 15 euro a week JUST for the UFH/Geothermal....in which case that's a whole lot of money !!!!
Click to expand...

Pique318, if you read Yop's post correctly you'll note that he did specify that the cost was for Geo. You can see from previous posts that the house is 2100 sq ft.

Are you serious when you say 15 Euro a week is expensive for water and space heating? That's less that 800 a year assuming the current level of usage. Bord Gais standing change is over 300 before you use any gas! Previous posters have reported gas bills of over 400 per two months for similar and smaller houses.
Leo
 
Leo said:
Pique318, if you read Yop's post correctly you'll note that he did specify that the cost was for Geo. You can see from previous posts that the house is 2100 sq ft.

Are you serious when you say 15 Euro a week is expensive for water and space heating? That's less that 800 a year assuming the current level of usage. Bord Gain standing change is over 300 before you use any gas! Previous posters have reported gas bills of over 400 per two months for similar and smaller houses.
Leo
Click to expand...


Thanks Leo for clearing that up. The 15 euro is the running cost for all electricity for the whole house per week, this is for unit cost only, it does not include the rip off standing charges we have pay.

As I stated this is down to having tighted looped UFH (means the UFH is running at 27 deg C instead of some UFH systems running at up to 40 Deg C), a lot of insulation, external & internalwalls, 4" in the floors, 300mm in the ceilings, 600mm in the roof space.


ZeeDee, what websites were these, just to clarify Geothermal is the not UFH, so could not be cracking their floors or having hot patches.

As for having "extremely hot patches" they are pulling the piss, UFH at most on a tile floor is warm, not unless they have their room stats up on 30 degrees!!
 
Yop,

Just a question on the loops, How far apart did you put them.
Also, What is the max longth of you zones.
I am looking at Unipipe and possibly vertical trial hole running a NIBE heat pump.
I was mailing you before on these issues.

Thanks
 
hayabusa said:
Yop,

Just a question on the loops, How far apart did you put them.
Also, What is the max longth of you zones.
I am looking at Unipipe and possibly vertical trial hole running a NIBE heat pump.
I was mailing you before on these issues.

Thanks
Click to expand...

I will have to check the exact widths & runs lad, it has been a while since I was looking at the cad drawings supplied. But I think the max run was in or about 50m. The gaps again max was 125mm, min 50mm.
The extra piping cost in or about 400 euro extra.

Here is the linky to the UFH section on the blog
http://selfbuildireland.blogspot.com/2005_10_01_archive.html


Bore hole is an excellent solution, the NIBE heat pump gets very good reviews.
 
Yop/Mickeyg
We've just moved into our selfbuild in galway, t/f, 300 sqmt bungalow, with lots of insulation and alu-clad timber windows. We put in a heliotherm geo-pump with gas ground pipes to heat domestic water, UFH downstairs and wall heating upstairs (both Gabotherm). Everything is working great, but given all the insulation, the heating isn't really tested/required this time of year. Climate control in tuam did all the heating and their engineer certainly knew his stuff. It looks like the same company Yop went with. The fact that its running well for you gives me great peace of mind as I'll have to monitor the cost/efficiency thro the coming winter before giving it the final thumbs up.

So, sparki74 and mickeyg, I wouldn't be put off the geothermal at all, it's more expensive to start with but the grant helps there. If I had know the extra costs and hassle of the 1m horizontal bed (cost of digger, sand for above & below pipes - 3 loads), I would have given more consideration to the vertical borehole (the grant is more and it would be more self contained which might outweight the drilling cost).
 
Denman said:
If I had know the extra costs and hassle of the 1m horizontal bed (cost of digger, sand for above & below pipes - 3 loads), I would have given more consideration to the vertical borehole (the grant is more and it would be more self contained which might outweight the drilling cost).
Click to expand...


A point I totally forgot to mention but have said to people, pain in the face laying out the area and then putting down the sand and that, costs so it does if u have to get someone to do it.
 
We have solar installed and are not to happy with the output/performace so far. They are supplied from a reputable supplier who has been in the business for several years. The amount they contribute to heat is not worth the expense, as pay back is to long. I heard all the talk about how much they do before we installed them. DHW heat is not the highest bill, space heating is. Solar does not contribute much during the winter months and heaps (hopefully) during the summer. We also have a pellet boiler and are happy with that. But solar, hmmmmm. Optimistic
 
Optimistic said:
We have solar installed and are not to happy with the output/performace so far. They are supplied from a reputable supplier who has been in the business for several years. The amount they contribute to heat is not worth the expense, as pay back is to long. I heard all the talk about how much they do before we installed them. DHW heat is not the highest bill, space heating is. Solar does not contribute much during the winter months and heaps (hopefully) during the summer. We also have a pellet boiler and are happy with that. But solar, hmmmmm. Optimistic
Click to expand...


Going by what people say and what I have read Solar is a case of "if I cannot have anything else then solar is better than nothing". Which of course is true, anything to clean up the environment and save you a few euros is not a bad thing.
The payback is supposidly very long alright, depends maybe on the amount of panels and that. I don't know a lot about them to be honest.
 
Can anyone advise where I can get energy usage calculations for heating a 200Lt hot water tank with Oil boiler v Gas boiler v Immersion heating. Looking for a comparison between the 3 methods..?
 
Denman said:
Yop/Mickeyg
We've just moved into our selfbuild in galway, t/f, 300 sqmt bungalow, with lots of insulation and alu-clad timber windows. We put in a heliotherm geo-pump with gas ground pipes to heat domestic water, UFH downstairs and wall heating upstairs (both Gabotherm). Everything is working great, but given all the insulation, the heating isn't really tested/required this time of year. Climate control in tuam did all the heating and their engineer certainly knew his stuff. It looks like the same company Yop went with. The fact that its running well for you gives me great peace of mind as I'll have to monitor the cost/efficiency thro the coming winter before giving it the final thumbs up.

So, sparki74 and mickeyg, I wouldn't be put off the geothermal at all, it's more expensive to start with but the grant helps there. If I had know the extra costs and hassle of the 1m horizontal bed (cost of digger, sand for above & below pipes - 3 loads), I would have given more consideration to the vertical borehole (the grant is more and it would be more self contained which might outweight the drilling cost).
Click to expand...

I've had a quote for geothermal system + UFH heating recently that is tempting and I'm trying to look into further. I've been quoted for UFH system and insulation, heat pump, DHW storage tank, and all controls/manifolds. Quotes also includes installation of system. What other costs associated with a Geo/UFH system should I be allowing for? Any ideas how much it could cost to dig a horizontal bed and lay the collection pipes? I just dont want to make decision without having factored in all the costs
 
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