Dodgy auctioneer dealings

J

jister

Guest
I was involved in purchasing a property, an old house. It was guided at 38000. Myself and another person were looking to buy it and renovate it. When we made an offer we were constantly outbid and finally our offer of 55000 was accepted, but when we did the sums the project was no longer viable so we pulled out.

Guess what - 6 months later the property is still sitting there, unsold at 38000.

Was there a second bidder? Is there any way of finding out? My guess is that the auctioneer sensed we were very eager so created an imaginary second bidder to jump up the price.

But of course auctioneers would never do this, would they?
 
I'd say that second bidder was somewhat virtual alright, if the project is still a runner, why not try another bid at the original price? I am sure the auctioneer is probably getting it in the neck from the vendor at this stage. He might be glad of you. But they are employed to get the best price for their vendor, maybe at whatever lengths!?
 
dpdgy auctioneer dealings

I know someone who was in the same situation a year leter it was put back on the market at the same price. Do auctioneers let the vendor know of offers that have been made on their properties.

The person that I know that this happened said that he told the auctioneer of anything had happened he would go ahead strainght away as was in funds to close immediately and he also told the vendors solictors this as well. One year later the property wa still but back on the market makes you wonder. I told my friend that because he was not a local that is why he would not get the property they would rathe sell it to some one they know even though the sale may fall through. Serves them right!!
 
other instances

In another instance I rand the auctioneer 5 times about arranging a viewing of a property and he wouldn't make an appointment. How does this help a seller

In another situation a sale agreed fell through and the auctioneer sold it one of his chums for 20K below the price without consulting the person who had been outbid.

I also saw one on TV where somebody trying to sell a house had very few people in looking at it. Desperate to sell to pay for a new home they let it go cheap. It transpired that the purchaser was in a relationship with somebody in the auctioneering firm and kept prospective buyers away.
 
Re: other instances

Hi Jister,

Yeh I've had some similar experiences with estate agents alright and have a pretty negative opinion of them in general - IMHO all they do is take a few photos, print a brochure, open the door for maybe three viewings, take a few phone calls and spin a few yarns and get paid off for it big time.

I think more and more people will start selling their homes themselves - taking a few photos on your digital camera and uploading them to myhome and daft will surely reach a large number of buyers and then just arrange for a friend to host the viewings. The loss of a few estate agents' jobs as a result of this is not something I'd mourn.

I honestly can't believe that the property industry is not regulated by the government, especially due to the increased incentive to do under the table cash deals to evade stamp duty (I have experienced this several times since the budget) due to the changes in the recent budget.

Stobear - no, an estate agent is not entitled to go to whatever lengths to get the best price for a client - they must do so within the confines of the law and creating phantom bidders is fraudulent. A publicly listed company are obliged to get the best share price for their stockholders, but they cannot do so by issuing false profit warnings, implying imminent takeovers or mergers that are purely fictional etc. The difference is one industry is regulated, the other requires no qualifications for the agents and they have free reign to do and say as they choose.
 
Re: other instances

and creating phantom bidders is fraudulent

True, but how is this ever going to be proved? As the initial poster says their bid was withdrawn after a certain bid was reached, apart from being miffed and having their suspicions, will a report to the IAVI result in a thorough investigation of that auctioneers actions in view of the sale?
 
the government

Of course the government are happy to see prices rise as it yields more tax receipts for them too.
 
Re: the government

Stobear - your point proves the overwhelming need for regulation of this sector. There is currently no way of preventing against or proving that an estate agent has created phantom bids. The IAVI will do absolutely nothing unless you have total proof, and then they will do little.

This clearly suggests that what is needed is regulation of this sector whereby all bidders have to be centrally authenticated (e.g. by PPS number) and then estate agents have to provide an audit of bidding history. Where there is suspicion of phantom bidding an independent regulator can refer to the bidding history and confirm that all bids were actually real. Thats just a suggestion, but something along these lines is clearly called for.

The government wont be happy when new figures show a drastic increase in the number of houses selling for €317,500 - which will be a clear indication of the number of dodgy cash deals done to evade the ~11k stamp duty that is incurred with bids over this amount, which are costing the states coffers a fair amount.
 
Re: the government

Couldn't agree more, had a few cross words with estate agents....not on the receiving end of suspicious bids mind, just plain bad service/no communication/lying......
 
Re: the government

Is added regulation really what's necessary particularly given the trend towards deregulation in most other markets?
 
Re: the government

whereby all bidders have to be centrally authenticated (e.g. by PPS number) and then estate agents have to provide an audit of bidding history.
Such a system would be worthless unless the bids are contractually binding. Otherwise, there is nothing to stop me making a bid (& giving my PPS number), but just walking away from the bid if it doesn't suit me. How many buyers will be happy with contractually binding bids?
 
bids

Yes Rainyday, but at least in a case like this where I suspect there is no second bidder the fraud squad could investigate / interview the second bidder to see that they were an independent bidders and not a figment of the auctioneers imagination.
 
Re: bids

Aren't the verbal offers on a house in the Scottish system legally binding?? Didn't I hear this somewhere
 
Re: bids

Imagine the knock on impact on house prices or estate agent/auctioneer fees if a "notarised" bidding system was put in place!!! :eek
 
Re: bids

Clubman – AFAIK there are no plans to remove regulation from the financial sector as there will always be a need to keep a tight leash on financial institutions to prevent/limit fraud. Deregulation in other sectors is aimed at opening the market up to competition – I’m all for that but I don’t think monitoring estate agents and their behaviour is going to restrict competition.

Rainyday – do you disagree with the notion of the system I mentioned above, or just the specific issues with how exactly it would work? I’m pretty sure in this day and age theres a way to put such a system in place, it just might require a bit of thought. How about a system whereby both buyers and sellers have to register with a central body to get setup on ‘Houses.ie’ – proof of identification is required for this, and you are then assigned an anonymous username and password.

Seller then advertises their house on ‘Houses.ie’ – they may or may not choose to consult a private estate agent for advice (though this could be an added service provided by the state run body), and they could just use their own digital camera to take photos. Representative of the state run body facilitates the viewings. Buyer places a bid using the website (or can call into one of the branches of the state body to do so). A buyer’s bidding history might be made public so that sellers can see if they have pulled out of loads of deals in the past, or if they are hedging their bets and bidding on many houses at the one time. Likewise, the buyers could see that a seller hasn’t repeatedly put houses on the market and pulled them off again. This system works quite well on eBay where sellers and buyers alike both know that a black mark against them is a major deterrent. Bidders could see the anonymous usernames of those bidding against them. State body monitors may make random checks to ensure legitimacy of bidders.

You could even copy eBay and have a system where you enter the maximum amount you are willing to pay for the property, and the system increases your bids in increments of €1,000 everytime you are outbid up until your limit has been reached. Like eBay this is open to some abuse whereby a seller could get their friends to place bids to increase the price, but I don’t think this is anymore vulnerable to such abuse as the current system whereby the agent just makes up phantom bidders – they don’t even bother with getting actual people to place false bids. Also, each person could only have one account which the state body could trace back to them.

You could also have other requirements such as a mandatory photo of every room in the house, ensuring that the seller has a structural survey done before advertising the house, and that this is placed on the website (shows the seller is serious about selling, and prevents the situation whereby the buyer bids on a house, goes sale agreed, has a survey done and then realises there is a major structural problem with the house and they have then missed out on their second choice house).

The above is just a top-of-the-head suggestion but I’m sure with more thought any problems could be ironed out and the benefits that I can see are: removal of private estate agents from the process (meaning less fees for seller to fork out, and elimination of their dodgy dealings and phantom bidders), there would be a single site where buyers could find all houses on the market (or visit one of the state bodys branches if no web access), sellers could see if the bidders have a history of pulling out of deals or are bidding on several houses at one time, there is no way for people to do dodgy cash deals for a couple of grand in excess of the stamp duty brackets (sellers identity is anonymous so cannot be contacted, though the system could provide for bids for contents of the house, this is clearly visible to all and is auditable) etc. etc.
 
Re: bids

the fraud squad could investigate / interview the second bidder to see that they were an independent bidders

Where in the law does it say that all bidders must be independent?

It is not unknown for family members to bid for property owned by close relatives of the vendor, particularly where property is sold as part of an estate to satisfy the terms of a will, and sometimes in other circumstances. If I put in a bid on a property being sold by a close relative, I would be fairly annoyed to see the Fraud Squad coming to my door! Ditto if I happen to have a close relative working as an auctioneer (which btw I dont).

Besides I'm sure the fraud squad have better things to do...

Btw, creating a state agency to do the work of auctioneers is a laughable suggestion given the incidence of corruption, inefficiency and lack of accountability that in the state sector over the years.
 
Re: bids

My point was that many buyers will put bids in on multiple properties simultaenously. If the buyers really have to commit to completing each bid, they will have to restrict themselves to only having one open bid at any one time.
 
Back
Top